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"Voirin" bow from estate sale


Violadamore
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2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Thanks, guys!!   I may post the other bow later.  It's similar, but a round stick, and I found a really faint marking on it finally.   Claims to be by some guy named "Lupot".....  ^_^

Ummmmmmm long ago a dear friends father bought a cello at a garage sale. For $300. That was about 1973, and $300 was not insignificant.

The cello went into a corner at home, to be mainly ignored for forty years while the daughter played her Dieudonne.

The Bow was a Peccatte. It was not ignored.

Eventually the cello got some attention. It was a Scarampella.

That was a good sale.

 

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There was a time when I used to go to estate sales whenever I saw a violin listed. Mostly in PA and MD. I have my share of success stories. But I never kept track amount of times I spent a Saterday morning and gas money only to find "the usual".........

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  • 1 year later...
1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Too well to sell.  :D

I agree completely, I have owned several of those bows, and they have all been excellent for the money, and excellent for twice the money. A former student is currently at Yale. Even though I have urged him to buy better equipment, he is quite content with the German trade Cello and Bow that he has.

And you realize, of course, that those nice old German trade bows Are the equivalent of those nice old German trade Violins, labeled Juzek or other Fake names, and they also quite frequently play too well to sell.

Edited by PhilipKT
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25 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

And you realize, of course, that those nice old German trade bows Are the equivalent of those nice old German trade Violins, labeled Juzek or other Fake names, and they also quite frequently play too well to sell.

Bows or violins, that depends on which grade they are.  :P

My umbrage is not with the various brands of trade fiddles whose prices have risen precipitately.  It's with the fanboy collector cults (and the dealers who encourage them) which have had a toxic effect on the prices and availability of certain brands generally recognized by experienced users  to be, objectively, no better or worse than many more anonymous student violins.  You have the same problem in several other categories of collectibles, so I recognize the vile phenomenon when I see it.  You also have the problem that once a particular brand (of anything) has distinguished itself for superior quality, the temptation to play the "sausage game" takes over, and the newer ones aren't as good as the older ones.

INHO, the final and only valid test of any tool is how well it performs its intended job, when compared to everything else on the market, not whose brand or label is on it.  :)

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13 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Bows or violins, that depends on which grade they are.  :P

My umbrage is not with the various brands of trade fiddles whose prices have risen precipitately.  It's with the fanboy collector cults (and the dealers who encourage them) which have had a toxic effect on the prices and availability of certain brands generally recognized by experienced users  to be, objectively, no better or worse than many more anonymous student violins.  You have the same problem in several other categories of collectibles, so I recognize the vile phenomenon when I see it.  You also have the problem that once a particular brand (of anything) has distinguished itself for superior quality, the temptation to play the "sausage game" takes over, and the newer ones aren't as good as the older ones.

INHO, the final and only valid test of any tool is how well it performs its intended job, when compared to everything else on the market, not whose brand or label is on it.  :)

I don’t disagree with that one whit, And the phenomenon is pervasive. If you’re in the parking lot and you see the Mercedes, you’re going to assume that the Mercedes is the best and most expensive car in the lot, and why do you think that?

Why, because it’s a MERCEDES, of course!

Balderdash.

I actually drive an old Mercedes myself, and it’s just a regular car. But it’s still a Mercedes, even though a Toyota is a better car.

But here’s the thing that you have always seemed to miss, you and Jacob and Blank and Bass and the gang, all of whom I love and respect.

All those widgets, best quality Morellis and Juzeks and Durros and what have you, were made to a particular standard.

Thats standard was high, so if you find one,You can be assured that it will be high-quality. And although it might not play quite as well as the next one on the line, it will play at a high-level, or it would not be best quality. Rather, it would be the second best quality, or the third best quality. The people of the factory are as perceptive as we, And they wanted to make sure that someone who bought the best was getting some thing that sounded-and looked, of course- better than the second best.

that Knoll or Dupree bow you have is a perfect example.  I recognized it, and I don’t recognize anything, and I think Duane also recognized it.

And I said to myself, that is a good solid bow, and I was right, because it was made to a high standard. My ex student at Yale has the exact same bow and it is great for what it is.

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36 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Bows or violins, that depends on which grade they are.  :P

My umbrage is not with the various brands of trade fiddles whose prices have risen precipitately.  It's with the fanboy collector cults (and the dealers who encourage them) which have had a toxic effect on the prices and availability of certain brands generally recognized by experienced users  to be, objectively, no better or worse than many more anonymous student violins.  You have the same problem in several other categories of collectibles, so I recognize the vile phenomenon when I see it.  You also have the problem that once a particular brand (of anything) has distinguished itself for superior quality, the temptation to play the "sausage game" takes over, and the newer ones aren't as good as the older ones.

INHO, the final and only valid test of any tool is how well it performs its intended job, when compared to everything else on the market, not whose brand or label is on it.  :)

Let me stress again that I agree with you completely, the only reason those particular trade widgets are especially desirable is because they are known quantities.

One of the violin bows I own is a lovely Silver mounted unmarked bow of best quality Pernambuco. It has languished in the shop, at a very low price, for over a year. It is a splendid bow, but an orphan. Even if someone plays it and likes it, they will be cognizant of the fact that it will be as difficult for them to sell as it was for the shop to sell, because it will always be an orphan.

Oh well.

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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

I don’t disagree with that one whit, And the phenomenon is pervasive. If you’re in the parking lot and you see the Mercedes, you’re going to assume that the Mercedes is the best and most expensive car in the lot, and why do you think that?

Why, because it’s a MERCEDES, of course!

Balderdash.

I actually drive an old Mercedes myself, and it’s just a regular car. But it’s still a Mercedes, even though a Toyota is a better car.

But here’s the thing that you have always seemed to miss, you and Jacob and Blank and Bass and the gang, all of whom I love and respect.

All those widgets, best quality Morellis and Juzeks and Durros and what have you, were made to a particular standard.

Thats standard was high, so if you find one,You can be assured that it will be high-quality. And although it might not play quite as well as the next one on the line, it will play at a high-level, or it would not be best quality. Rather, it would be the second best quality, or the third best quality. The people of the factory are as perceptive as we, And they wanted to make sure that someone who bought the best was getting some thing that sounded-and looked, of course- better than the second best.

that Knoll or Dupree bow you have is a perfect example.  I recognized it, and I don’t recognize anything, and I think Duane also recognized it.

And I said to myself, that is a good solid bow, and I was right, because it was made to a high standard. My ex student at Yale has the exact same bow and it is great for what it is.

Sorry, most Juzeks are low grade crap worth $100-200 tops, Durros are better but not high grade either.

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4 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

But here’s the thing that you have always seemed to miss, you and Jacob and Blank and Bass and the gang, all of whom I love and respect.

Dear Phillip, I don't think that me (and I can speak only for myself but assume that others might agree) did miss anything - actually I tend to agree with most of what you've written. The we are usually making point is exactly what you described in your other post, meaning that all of this Juzeks etc. aren't different from these "orphanized" mass produced instrument and bows, neither in regards of alleged standards nor often from the persons who once produced them.

Therefore your comparison with car brands is missing this point completely. I'm not very knowledgeable about car production (nor do I want to be that), but I'm strongly assuming these cars are made by different persons in different factories and are designed by different engineers. This all doesn't apply to the trade instruments and bows, there were all made to similar standards, simple, better, good etc., in similar or the same shops, some sold with a brand, others without.

I'm not talking about performance, that should be within the judgement of every individual, but chances are IMO very high that - like you wrote, too - same good or bad no matter if your cello, violin or bow was traded with a recognizable and well advertised brand or an anonymous for a fraction of this price. The usual marketing trick is to suggest that a particular brand is associated automaticlly with "Oh, these were made to high standards", no matter if this is the case or isn't, simply by permanent repition.

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4 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

But here’s the thing that you have always seemed to miss, you and Jacob and Blank and Bass and the gang, all of whom I love and respect.

Dear Phillip, I don't think that me (and I can speak only for myself but assume that others might agree) did miss anything - actually I tend to agree with most of what you've written. The we are usually making point is exactly what you described in your other post, meaning that all of this Juzeks etc. aren't different from these "orphanized" mass produced instrument and bows, neither in regards of alleged standards nor often from the persons who once produced them.

Therefore your comparison with car brands is missing this point completely. I'm not very knowledgeable about car production (nor do I want to be that), but I'm strongly assuming these cars are made by different persons in different factories and are designed by different engineers. This all doesn't apply to the trade instruments and bows, there were all made to similar standards in similar or the same shops, some sold with a brand, others without.

I'm not talking about performance, that should be within the judgement of every individual, but chances are IMO very high that - like you wrote, too - same good or bad no matter if your cello, violin or bow was traded with a recognizable and well advertised brand or an anonymous for a fraction of this price. The usual marketing trick is to suggest that a particular brand is associated automaticlly with "Oh, these were made to high standards", no matter if this is the case or isn't, simply by permanent repition.

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2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I wasn't referring to the top of the line, but rather the ordinary stuff that was used by so many school orchestras and sell on ebay for outrageously ridiculous prices considering how horribly bad they are.

Oh that stuff is firewood, no argument there at all, I can’t imagine it was even worth the time to put it together, but the top line stuff is very nice.

A mid grade Jay Haide sells for about 5K in my area, and they are wonderful instruments, I’ve never played a bad one. However, I’ve also never played one that sounded different from any other one, they have a very specific concept of sound in mind when they make those, and the nice old German instruments I found recently all sound better, so for me The starting point for one of those nice old German cellos in nice shape would be about the same.

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