Interesting violin ID requested

[Ratcliffiddles]

Almost certain it's French, ca.1760 maybe Guersan, with the wrong scroll.

 

[PhilipKT]

Vieux Paris means “before Lupot” right?

[Andreas Preuss]

I was just looking at the corners from the side. Are the ribs inserted into the back? It almost looks like the channel running out at the corners (or maybe just a shadow?)

 

[Michael Appleman]

7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Vieux Paris means “before Lupot” right?

Basically, yes, though it might be more precise to say "before the Paris based makers started seriously copying Stradivari," so before Pique and Lupot(ca.1780-90), with a few odd makers like Bassot and Aldric trending in that direction. French violin "know it alls" tend to break up Vieux Paris violins into three sub-categories, the pre 1730-40 makers (Pierray and Boquay the best known) who used mostly an Amati inspired model and could have some very soft and rich coloured varnishes (amost Venitian looking at times), the 1740-1760 ish makers (Guersan dominated the market, and Castagneri appears in Paris) where Stainer models start showing up and the varnish is getting thinner and harder. 1760-1780ish is the last period when the models get a bit farther from the Amati inspiration and one can even start seeing Strad inspired f-holes. The varnish starts getting seriously yellow and hard, and more and mors violins are being brought in from Mirecourt. Some of the better known makers from the last group are Leclerc, Chappuy and Frebrunet.

[Michael Appleman]

10 hours ago, Guido said:

On the subject of whalebone, Maussiell in Nuernberg used it regularly. Actually, I've never seen a violin by Maussiell without whalebone purfling.

Ths is interesting! I have never heard of Maussiel using it, before. Jacob, Ali and the other folks who may have seen a mountain of Maussiells over the years can you corroborate?

IMHO, the OP violin doesn't look like it has whalebone purfling to my eyes from the photos, more like ebony, which is in line with a mid 1700's French origin.  

[jacobsaunders]

12 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

Jacob, Ali and the other folks who may have seen a mountain of Maussiells over the years can you corroborate?

First I had heard of it

[Blank face]

It doesn't happen to see "mountains" of Mausiells, they are more a very rare thing; just mountains of misattributed Mausiells, the last one from Ebay being discussed at the auction scroll, when I recall right. One I saw long time ago in a museum. Therefore I'm curious where Guido saw them?

From the few reliable photos I'm having at hand they seem to have a rather bleached out wooden purfling. But Nürnberg was a trade center of rare goods at that period, so I won't exclude that it was sometimes used for violin purflings, too. The OP doesn't look like Mausiell btw.

[Michael Appleman]

Thanks for your input, gentlemen! I think in my lifetime, I 've seen a several hundred southern German violins, including 3 exemplary Maussiells and a dozen Widhalms (plus a handful of Buchstetters, Fischers and Thumhardts). I've seen precisely two southern German violins with whalebone purfling, one an early double purfled probable Füssen, and the other a probable Mittenwald. Both of these left me scratching my head, and more knowledgeable folks could basically only shrug and say, "yep, that's whalebone." No one seemed able to say this was a trend or to be expected from a given shop or city in this region, unlike, say Gragnani in Livorno or Jacobs, Rombouts, et. al. in Amsterdam. For what it's worth, the French makers in Amsterdam came later, like Lefevre, and they used French style wooden purfling as did Cuypers who worked in a more "Vieux Paris" style than anything like the earlier Jacobs school.

[Guido]

1 hour ago, Michael Appleman said:

Ths is interesting! I have never heard of Maussiel using it, before. Jacob, Ali and the other folks who may have seen a mountain of Maussiells over the years can you corroborate?

IMHO, the OP violin doesn't look like it has whalebone purfling to my eyes from the photos, more like ebony, which is in line with a mid 1700's French origin.  

There is a Maussiell 1727 in the EILA book “violins and bows of the past - selected masterpieces from the German cultural sphere”. It has whalebone purfling and the text explains that Maussiell used whalebone from 1720.

I have seen others (not many) which looked credible and they all had whalebone purfling... must all have been after 1720.

[Blank face]

20 minutes ago, Guido said:

There is a Maussiell 1727 in the EILA book “violins and bows of the past - selected masterpieces from the German cultural sphere”.

 

This one? It's from a different book and photos are small, but could be whalebone indeed.

[jacobsaunders]

39 minutes ago, Guido said:

There is a Maussiell 1727 in the EILA book “violins and bows of the past - selected masterpieces from the German cultural sphere”. It has whalebone purfling and the text explains that Maussiell used whalebone from 1720.

I have seen others (not many) which looked credible and they all had whalebone purfling... must all have been after 1720.

Yes on page 96. That was (is?) Herr Zunterer's, where I used to work. I had not noticed the "whalebone" purfling, and can't find the reference  to ues of walebone after  1720. To echo BF, I have never owned a Maussiell, or repaired one, and apart from this one in Zunterers safe, can't remember any Maussiell instruments, although I have 2 Widhalms. I went into detail about the strained relationship between Widhalm and Maussiell here:

for this thread though, Maussiell is "off topic", since the OP fiddle is clearly old French

[Blank face]

So Phillip can inform "Jay" that the general consensus here is ca. 1760 French. The scroll looks odd, but I still wonder if it could be original nonetheless, some VP seem to have roughly made scrolls.. Purfling rather ebony than whalebone? Maybe we can see a close up of it, though I don't know if it's easily to distinguish at a photo.

[PhilipKT]

Interior photos submitted for your perusal.

[Blank face]

Thanks. Built on the back (with ribs inserted in a groove) and remains of a through neck plateau. Like expected.

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, Blank face said:

Thanks. Built on the back (with ribs inserted in a groove) and remains of a through neck plateau. Like expected.

Does that verify the time and place of origin?

[Blank face]

13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Does that verify the time and place of origin?

Yes. Probably Vieux Paris around the mid 18th century, or a bit later like Peter found out. Though I'm still thinking that it could be Dutch, too. They used the same construction method.