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morgana

How do I get a screw extraction tool for a jammed, broken screw out of a violin bow?

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On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 3:30 PM, David Burgess said:

Good for you! There are already more than enough cats and dogs (and humans) than can find good homes.

Excess cats and dogs are "put down" at very high rates, due to overabundance.

One sister and I have no genetic offspring. My other sister has two, both highly successful by most standards,  but she and her husband have also taken on many kids (some through foster parenting programs, and some adopted) who were born with fetal alcohol or crack cocaine syndrome. Not everything on her end has worked out all hunky-dory,  but there have been some occasional major wins. :)

I do wish that I could could come up to the level of that sister, who those in my family sometimes semi-humorously refer to as "Saint Carol". :lol:

Sorry David luv, not to answer you till now.

Yes, you are right, in little Britain ppl breed cats, dogs, instead of selling crack, being taxi drivers or going on the sick benefits. I'm not blaming them at all, this Island nation has lost it's ability to construct, mainly because construction was lucrative in the wars, so Scotland lost steel making, warship construction and Napiers fine gun metal workers, mining operations finished due to using atom splitting nuclear power plants. I think we have 4 nuclear plants. Selafield 1 and 2, can't remember the others, all completely overtaking electricity supplies formerly using gas oil reserves of which offshore we have plenty of reserves, our oil rigs churn out tonnes every second, natural gas, offshore still doing a healthy profit. Liverpool is the chief import exporters in the EU. We export and import a third of all international goods, including live animals (horrendously btw).

Haleeood branch of the RSPCA was closed down this April/May. It held thousands of dogs, cats, horses, ponies, wildlife, and was shut down because of government funding and issues of animal welfare. Thousands of strays, lost, dogs, cats, unwanted kittens, where kept alive and that was horrendous it closing, as the staff lost their jobs, as they took in any living animal and had a programme with the PDSA to give poor people free neutering's and money tokens for free inoculation of any pet, so vets associated with and who worked with them also lost their pittance paid money.

If you can imagine the scale of number of deaths of animals there because of local council thieves who control everything and we pay higher council tax than Londoners. The ever funless imaginary world of New Labour. We have internment camps for illegal immigrants who survive the journey only to be beaten up. Good on you and your sister Carol is a good girl. Xxx

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On 11/20/2019 at 6:24 PM, morgana said:

...drilling v[ery] carefully into that screw will be about do able...

I hope you don't mean drilling into the end of the screw where it is visible inside the nipple bore.  This will not be about do-able; it will be near impossible.  Because the screw is much harder that the surrounding wood, the drill but will have a very strong tendency to veer off into the softer wood.

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No Brad luv, I've done gone been there as the photo shows. I mean NOT drilling in at the end. I mean at the screw it self after getting rid of the brass eyelet screw from around the main steel screw then drilling, I mean drilling using as was said, a dentist drill bit on my rotary drill to break the screw, or, seeing as said to just leave brass eyelet, and break as just said using a dentist drill on dremel and break the screw at the closest position without marring the screw so as to twist off brass eyelet, as it is moveable as I said, from side to side on screw thread, not towards or backwards along the screw. So if I can break the screw cleanly, I hope to get the eyelet off of the screw at the break, then able to remove the embedded foward end towards the nipple end of the bow. Then remove the remaining part embedded in the upper end of the mortice using above said process. Or processes without splitting the actual stick at the nipple inside end, which at the moment is not split, however I have seen so many bows which have split due to twisting a frog around with stuck screw and eyelet. Then I will put up photos as doing it. I'm going to set aside a day for doing this and photographs of it, as well as tools, explaining the process as I am doing it. It's helpful chaps like you that can show me, and give me the help needed to attempt with care, this procedure, then the remedial work to tidy up my mess of my first mistakes as in, asking about it and understanding. Cheers, lads a chicks xxx

Edited by morgana
spelling crap

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I don't believe there is any drilling necessary. Simply cut a groove through the eyelet with a small abrasive wheel parallel cutting lengthwise with the screw.  Insert a small flat blade screwdriver into the groove and give it a 1/4 turn twist or so to relieve the internal eyelet threads pressure against the end screw. Once it's loosened up, the end screw can be removed.

Probably about 10 minutes work, total.

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13 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

I don't believe there is any drilling necessary. Simply cut a groove through the eyelet with a small abrasive wheel parallel cutting lengthwise with the screw.  Insert a small flat blade screwdriver into the groove and give it a 1/4 turn twist or so to relieve the internal eyelet threads pressure against the end screw. Once it's loosened up, the end screw can be removed.

Probably about 10 minutes work, total.

Hi Bill luv, so sorry for being thick but what do you mean by a small abrasive wheel? Also, do you mean using it to cut actually through the brass eyelet until it has a parallel groove enough into it's side, then, with the flat headed small screwdriver, insert that into it and twist a quarter to actually split the brass eyelet, or loosen it so I can de thread it by its top bit to basically let it out of it's screw threaded eye, so then move it away from the but end position, enabling the screw itself to be extracted from it's rusted in solidly rusted in situation where it has no way of coming out without either hollow drilling into the wood or then soaking it in vinegar, and then clamping it and twisting it from into the mortise chamber? I think I might be missing a lot of brain cells lol! Will that screw come out without breaking it apart? Or tap hammering it out in the mortice using a lot of padding? Should I use oil, should I use heat, should I use vinegar? Should I just keep tap hammering it carefully like until the screw shifts down shaft towards the end so then extracate its protruding end with pliers twisting outwards carefully?

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I don't think it's as simple as that, because I think the screw is seized in the stick holes due to rust.  I think this because otherwise morgana would be able to slide the screw so that the end of it projects out of the end of the stick.  Cutting the screw into several pieces the way Josh did in the other thread might get it out.

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8 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I don't think it's as simple as that, because I think the screw is seized in the stick holes due to rust.  I think this because otherwise morgana would be able to slide the screw so that the end of it projects out of the end of the stick.  Cutting the screw into several pieces the way Josh did in the other thread might get it out.

Brad, luv that's the trouble, it's stuck with the wood tight as nun's corset, and the wood is very hard Brazilian and very slim in radius.

I've written on here to you Bill luv, but I am being moderated so its not gone public yet. X

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19 hours ago, morgana said:

Hi Bill luv, so sorry for being thick but what do you mean by a small abrasive wheel? Also, do you mean using it to cut actually through the brass eyelet until it has a parallel groove enough into it's side, then, with the flat headed small screwdriver, insert that into it and twist a quarter to actually split the brass eyelet, or loosen it so I can de thread it by its top bit to basically let it out of it's screw threaded eye, so then move it away from the but end position, enabling the screw itself to be extracted from it's rusted in solidly rusted in situation where it has no way of coming out without either hollow drilling into the wood or then soaking it in vinegar, and then clamping it and twisting it from into the mortise chamber?

 Dremel makes some miniature metal cutting abrasive cutoff wheels.

https://widgetsupply.com/product/bbk04-420.html

 

Yes, once the eyelet is free enough that it's not seized on the screw, you should be able to work the screw loose.

I have a hard time believing the screw is seized into the wood so solid that it can't be withdrawn with some needle nose pliers, once the eyelet is out of the way.

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4 hours ago, morgana said:

…[the screw is] stuck with the wood tight as nun's corset...

That's what I thought.

Note that later on in the other thread Josh showed how he frees a stuck screw.  It's not a simple procedure, because he has to make a special cutter and then he has to bush the screw hole.  I've never removed a stuck screw in this fashion, but I expect that I will eventually.

 

20 hours ago, morgana said:

...Should I use oil...?...

No.  If you use oil, the wood will become saturated with oil.  This will make it impossible to glue, and you will probably need to do some gluing before you're finished with this project.

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I think after the eyelet is split, I would be inclined to heat the stuck screw with a high power soldering iron (45 to 75W) until it starts smoking and quickly withdraw it with needle nose pliers. The heat should break down whatever is seizing it in the stick.

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Whilst cleaning out my fish again full of cold me so v. Tired. I know that drilling into the screw is a stupid overkill, even with the brass eyelet out of the equation, it's going to be too hard to get through that solid steel.

However, I have an embryonic idea.

If I get a purchase on the screw after heat drilling at it's weakest point whilst wrapping it around the mortice with masking tape, like a buffering cradle, then wrapping stiffening sticks, to support the actual underneath of the stick at mortice and putting it in the hair jig. Then after I drill, or tip end soldering, get a 68 degree angle cut against the weak twine screw deep enough, I can maybe, using Bills advice on moving the screw down the mortice, with tap hammering, using a, well a tap hammer and a smal finely honed flat ended screw driver at that angle to see if the screw can be tempted to shift towards the exit of the stick end! If I can jolt itself towards without the encumbrance that's the trouble causer:- the brass eyelet which needs removing due to it's proximity inhibitating position but end against edge of end mortice channel then I can go to the top of the class, well A for effort anyway. Then I can get on with sleep food and actually finding the effin frog....AaaaaH!!!!! Then cuddling my fur kitten. And I will do it with photos too. So in the future if some poor, barstard who doesn't deserve to be given this situation, never caused trouble for anyone, always looked after others, never swore on purpose, or set fire to cats, went to church, Synagogue or Mosk, loved and cared for his or her mummy, daddy, sisters brothers, ferrets, whippets, hedgehogs, who wrpt at Lassie films, and apologised for everything doesn't end up in a high security mental hospital for the criminally insane, after this attempt, then God be blessed.

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Margana, before removing the eyelet, how about placing a drift or small stick of wood against the tip side of the eylet, and lightly tapping it toward the butt end to see if the screw can be moved in that direction far enough that the broken end will protrude, can be grabbed with pliers, and twisted out?

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13 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Margana, before removing the eyelet, how about placing a drift or small stick of wood against the tip side of the eylet, and lightly tapping it toward the butt end to see if the screw can be moved in that direction far enough that the broken end will protrude, can be grabbed with pliers, and twisted out?

I imagine a picture would resolve a thousand guesses, but I wonder if the eyelet is already sitting in the end of the mortice closest to the end of the bow? This makes it even more difficult to cut without damaging the stick.

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Hi Bill, luv. I reckon you are right. It's so against the back end of mortice, I reckon a soft solder iron is in order. I'm busy cleaning up my house, as well as varnish finishing 2 violins, in this damp weather, and being disabled (not moaning, just saying) I am busy as a very busy bee.

So, I reckon to put heat against the thing, then tap hammer it forwards angle to break it as the brass is quite thin, though brass is hard enough to need a good heat at weakest point.

Once that thing is off using a good quick few taps, it'll shatter, then I can drill cut the actual swine, the angle against the end at 68 degrees, plenty of hard padding. Heat will just cause more swelling of the carbined steel so best angle tap see if it frees a bit and use a baring hard steel inserted into the angled drilled hole in the screw at 55 degree and it's going to cool down first, then tap it force it slowly towards coming out of it's jamming position, then as soon as you can feel it freeing, it'll come good outright twist at end.

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14 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

I imagine a picture would resolve a thousand guesses, but I wonder if the eyelet is already sitting in the end of the mortice closest to the end of the bow? This makes it even more difficult to cut without damaging the stick.

It looks like there's some room between the eyelet and the end of the mortise, perhaps enough that by tapping against the eyelet, the screw can be moved far enough out the butt end to grab it with pliers. (Photo from Morgana's post near the center of page 1)

2019_11_18_20_51_34.jpg

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Strange, the photo didn't show up before when I was reading through previous posts. I can see now that it would be a bit tight to get a cutoff wheel in there without cutting into the stick.  Perhaps a fine tooth razor saw could be used in its stead.

You're right though,  there is a little bit of wiggle room to perhaps free up the screw.

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