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PhilipKT

Simon Voigt. Is this a legit Label?

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My students cello has two labels. The main one is an Eberle(Fake so fake)

the other is this repair label. There are pages of Voigt makers, but the only Simon is 100 years before this one.

I can’t imagine someone faking a repair label, so I’m thinking this is real but can’t find anything about the guy.

any help?

 

672DD0B3-0242-44F0-8BFD-93B135208F69.jpeg

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The name of the town was no longer “Neukirchen” but had been changed to “Markneukirchen” in 1858, so that it would scarcely be possible to repair something in “Neukirchen” in 1870. Also I doubt that anyone spoke English in the re-named town at the time. It seems to be handwritten to imitate printing, although the first scribe seems to have dropped dead after the “i” of Violin, and someone else carried on. One almost feels tempted to ask you if you wrote the label yourself;)

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30 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Curious as to why someone would fake a repair label. Seems more likely they’d just write their own name. 

Good question. The "Schweitzers" that you see everywhere often have 2. And they even fake the repairs.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

"violin-macher" would  have been perfectly typical of the area

Thanks! Good to know! :)

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Geigenbauer is a relative modern term, formerly they used either Geigenmacher or Violinmacher like here. Lüttgendorf called his book "Die Geigen- und Lautenmacher", not "-bauer".

Everybody being a bit familiar with the German language knows that "Bauer" meant usually farmer, so this makes me wonder when they started to plant violins.:)

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I thought bauer meant "maker". Farmers make food. I must be a bad German...^_^

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At what point did Neukirchen become Markneukirchen? I thought it was well before 1870. But I suppose the label could have been an old one, or maybe the repairer hadn't received the email.

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10 minutes ago, Rue said:

I thought bauer meant "maker". Farmers make food. I must be a bad German...^_^

Farmers are planting, cultivating, growing, breeding etc., but not "making". Making doesn't apply to food, rather cooking or baking.

The GDR was known as "Arbeiter und Bauernstaat", meaning state of the workers and farmers (but mind the "n", plural of Geigenbauer is the same word, maybe that makes the difference). "Bauen" is usually regarded as somehow more rough than "Machen", compare "Uhrmacher" (clockmaker) and "Bauarbeiter" (construction worker).

 

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8 minutes ago, deans said:

At what point did Neukirchen become Markneukirchen? 

 

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The name of the town was no longer “Neukirchen” but had been changed to “Markneukirchen” in 1858, so that it would scarcely be possible to repair something in “Neukirchen” in 1870. 

Bitte schön!

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Is it possible that it is a genuine repair label? I personally think it’s odd that the added text would be in English, but it’s not impossible, and the fact that the name is absent from my Jalovek Doesn’t necessarily mean anything either. It’s a nice cello either way, I just think it’s an interesting mystery for the young owner and her family to explore.

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49 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Farmers are planting, cultivating, growing, breeding etc., but not "making". Making doesn't apply to food, rather cooking or baking.

The GDR was known as "Arbeiter und Bauernstaat", meaning state of the workers and farmers (but mind the "n", plural of Geigenbauer is the same word, maybe that makes the difference). "Bauen" is usually regarded as somehow more rough than "Machen", compare "Uhrmacher" (clockmaker) and "Bauarbeiter" (construction worker).

 

I don't want to belabour broad word usage too much, but in English you can ask:

"Hey Harvey! Did you make a garden this year?"

"Hey Gord, talk to you later. I need to make dinner!"

Sadly, I no longer have the opportunity to ask Oma and Opa about such things...

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2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Is it possible that it is a genuine repair label? I personally think it’s odd that the added text would be in English, but it’s not impossible, and the fact that the name is absent from my Jalovek Doesn’t necessarily mean anything either. It’s a nice cello either way, I just think it’s an interesting mystery for the young owner and her family to explore.

I think it would be cool to take a blacklight to the label and look for differences in ink. It looks to me like someone tried to go over old lettering to darken it up. I saw that Tariso and Amati websites refer to a Simon Voigt in Neukirchen 1710-1781.

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

I don't want to belabour broad word usage too much, but in English you can ask:

"Hey Harvey! Did you make a garden this year?"

"Hey Gord, talk to you later. I need to make dinner!"

Sadly, I no longer have the opportunity to ask Oma and Opa about such things...

“Did you make a garden?” Is a very unusual thing to say, I’d call it poor English actually. One says “plant a garden” if they have been to school.

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

I don't want to belabour broad word usage too much, but in English you can ask:

"Hey Harvey! Did you make a garden this year?"

"Hey Gord, talk to you later. I need to make dinner!"

Sadly, I no longer have the opportunity to ask Oma and Opa about such things...

I was referring to the more refined "high language"; B)in fact you are right that "machen" is also used very broadly as replacement for all kind of verbs, like "Essen machen", though "kochen" would be the more advanced form. Not to speak about dialects.

When I'll find the time maybe I'll try to find out more about the change from Violinmacher and Geigenmacher to Geigenbauer; at least the late 18th Mittenwald makers used the word Geigenmacher at their labels, too.

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7 minutes ago, BassClef said:

“Did you make a garden?” Is a very unusual thing to say, I’d call it poor English actually. One says “plant a garden” if they have been to school.

Just my saying!;) Or is it a sort of German-Canadian street slang?

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3 hours ago, Rue said:

I don't want to belabour broad word usage too much, but in English you can ask:

"Hey Harvey! Did you make a garden this year?"

Where I grew up, you "do" a garden

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3 hours ago, Rue said:

I don't want to belabour broad word usage too much, but in English you can ask:

"Hey Harvey! Did you make a garden this year?"

"Hey Gord, talk to you later. I need to make dinner!"

 Do you drive to the saloon in your saloon?

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1 hour ago, glebert said:

I think it would be cool to take a blacklight to the label and look for differences in ink. It looks to me like someone tried to go over old lettering to darken it up. I saw that Tariso and Amati websites refer to a Simon Voigt in Neukirchen 1710-1781.

That listing was in my Jalovec, but he died 100 years before our man of mystery.

I wonder if possibly the guy on the label was a repairman and not a maker?

The two languages, the city not matching the date, the difference in Inc., all raise questions, but my own feeling is that any fraud/deception/falsehood has to be logical. If it’s not well done it will be too obviously fraud, and this Doesn’t fool anyone. With that in mind, what’s the most logical theory? “

”When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.” S. Holmes

At the moment, we don’t have enough facts to eliminate anything as impossible. I’ll do some more digging the next time I see the cello. I have posted about the instrument before, however.

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6 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

... but my own feeling is that any fraud/deception/falsehood has to be logical. If it’s not well done it will be too obviously fraud, and this Doesn’t fool anyone....

 

You massively overestimate the intelligence of many fraudsters and  also of the people they are trying to fool. We could go on forever discussing a couple of  bits of paper stuck inside a cello.  Everything about the label screams nonsense. The repaired by in English that looks like it was written by a seven year old. The date written that looks to be written by the same hand, and a maker who had been dead a hundred years before the label date. You also forget that prior to the invention of the internet it was even easier to fool people than it is now. Information flow was much poorer nd almost non-existent outside major centres.

It might also be instructive to look at the Cello itself, and ascribe a time period and region of origin prior to obsessing' about the label in it.

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One theory would be that Voigt made the instrument (if it fits) and later someone tried to upgrade it to an Eberle and instead of taking out the Voigt label, he turned it into a repair label. The (original) Voigt label was without a year and fits with the Neukirchen time. I would assume the original label looked like '...olinmacher in Neukirchen' bit and the bolding was yet done by someone else, possibly before the attempted upgrade to an Eberle.

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