Collin-Mezin

[Potter]

Is there any public way (for fun) to look up or find 

a record confirming the attached serial number?

Again, thanks everyone!

 

[PhilipKT]

@Potter

Mr Potter, you realize, of course, that having chosen a violin, you have to go through the same process for a bow?

What fun!

[Potter]

We brought home some bows already. She is liking a Sebastian Dirr.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Potter said:

Is there any public way (for fun) to look up or find 

a record confirming the attached serial number?

Again, thanks everyone!

 

I'm not aware of any archive.

These serial numbers tend to be all over the place, so I don't think you would find anything helpful ...

[Potter]

Thanks, great to know.

[PhilipKT]

54 minutes ago, Potter said:

We brought home some bows already. She is liking a Sebastian Dirr.

There is a large number of bow experts here. You can get excellent and quite specific advice about bows.

The sister of one of my students recently ended a two-year search for a violin and bow, And the bow is an amazing stick for a 15-year-old girl, a Lamy with some repaired damage( not sure what) and a replaced button. It was surprisingly inexpensive. I was flabbergasted, but it’s genuine and comes from a reputable shop.

wishing you as much success!

[Rue]

I dunno...

Not trying to play devil's advocate - or maybe I am? 

But - this has an edge of "name dropping" or branding. Which is fine too - I often prefer brand names over generic. Depends on what it is.

So? What do we want to say? Assume each of the following are absolutely identical in playability:

"I play a Collin-Mezzin violin with a Lamy bow".

"I play a mass-produced factory Collin-Mezzin violin with a repaired, low value, but still functional Lamy bow".

"I play a top-notch, high-end Collin-Mezin violin with a mint condition Lamy bow".

"I play a violin made by our local luthier with a great Chinese bow."

...or...as in our community orchestra:

"I have a violin and a bow. Good enough. What are they? No idea."

[Potter]

In my neighborhood you would likely get a Mozart who or Partita what. So not much name dropping possibilities in my daily life:). Its been an interesting education and helped affirm a difficult purchase in an area  I have limited knowledge. And my daughter is very happy with where we ended up! And the dad feels he will have marketable violin when and if she needs more in the future. 

[jacobsaunders]

24 minutes ago, Rue said:

 

...or...as in our community orchestra:

"I have a violin and a bow. Good enough. What are they? No idea."

I have always found it very important to take a really good cello to the local orchestra. As a cellist, you normally have to spend about 90% of the time not playing the cello, but having to listen to the first violins making a hash of some (supposedly) difficult bit, so at least I can spend my time looking at a beautiful cello

[PhilipKT]

8 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I have always found it very important to take a really good cello to the local orchestra. As a cellist, you normally have to spend about 90% of the time not playing the cello, but having to listen to the first violins making a hash of some (supposedly) difficult bit, so at least I can spend my time looking at a beautiful cello

I’ve noticed that I spend a lot of time talking about bows and trading bows back-and-forth. Fortunately in the orchestra I play and win not doing opera, I get to sit in the back, and I play some really nice bows-and junk- every night at rehearsal.

 

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I’ve noticed that I spend a lot of time talking about bows and trading bows back-and-forth. Fortunately in the orchestra I play and win not doing opera, I get to sit in the back, and I play some really nice bows-and junk- every night at rehearsal.

 

I think there is a spiv like that in practically every orchestra

[PhilipKT]

3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think there is a spiv like that in practically every orchestra

Don’t be rude. Your charm extends only so far and you crossed the border a time ago.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, Potter said:

In my neighborhood you would likely get a Mozart who or Partita what. So not much name dropping possibilities in my daily life:). Its been an interesting education and helped affirm a difficult purchase in an area  I have limited knowledge. And my daughter is very happy with where we ended up! And the dad feels he will have marketable violin when and if she needs more in the future. 

Then it's win-win! Which is always an excellent outcome! 

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

...so at least I can spend my time looking at a beautiful cello

There is that!   Bonus!

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think there is a spiv like that in practically every orchestra

Spiv. Had to look it up. I will add it to my Word of the Day vocabulary list - along with quatsch (which I actually knew, Oma used it a lot).

[jacklinks]

Maybe kind of sort of on topic, but which generally has the better sound/tone: a pre-1900s Collin-Mezzin or a 1920s Roth. For a moment, forget build quality, aesthetics, value, etc. ... Which one is more likely to sound better?

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, jacklinks said:

Maybe kind of sort of on topic, but which generally has the better sound/tone: a pre-1900s Collin-Mezzin or a 1920s Roth. For a moment, forget build quality, aesthetics, value, etc. ... Which one is more likely to sound better?

The classic Collin-Mézin model was a kind of broad flat Strad model, and in my experience this model always sounds outstanding, really far superior to almost all 1920s Roths. However from about 1885 onwards, other more commercial models appeared, and often these sound quite poor. From about 1895 the classic model is gone ....

It's rather a sad story, but it's essentially what we see in most areas of commerce today - a brand that becomes highly respected because of its quality, and is then exploited for profit to the point where all that's left is the brand.

Post 1906 there are nice sounding Collin-Mézins, but the proportion of good ones to lemons is the same as with any Mirecourt workshop or factory production. With these violins people are only buying the brand, since the tone and workmanship of a good JTL or Laberte or Apparut would be exactly the same.

[matesic]

50 years ago when I first went looking for a decent violin (with a budget of £120) every other dealer offered me a Collin-Mezin and I hated them all. Fast-forward 25 years and I went shopping again with £3000, only to get a similar experience. One of my quartet colleagues owned one which I thought sounded terribly shrill. Martin's summary seems to explain it perfectly

[GeorgeH]

12 hours ago, martin swan said:

The classic Collin-Mézin model was a kind of broad flat Strad model, and in my experience this model always sounds outstanding, really far superior to almost all 1920s Roths.

Not to say that this is right or wrong, but it is strictly anecdotal.

There were many different grades and models of Roth violins, and my guess is that you have had vastly more experience with Collin-Mézin instruments than 1920s Roth instruments.

[martin swan]

21 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Not to say that this is right or wrong, but it is strictly anecdotal.

There were many different grades and models of Roth violins, and my guess is that you have had vastly more experience with Collin-Mézin instruments than 1920s Roth instruments.

Not really - I suppose I have seen and played about 20 1920s Roths, many different models, Strad, DG, Amati even. With Collin-Mézin I have played maybe 10 pre-1885, all astounding, and sold 2 or 3. We've sold or had for sale 5 or 6 more tradey late 19th century models, and I have seen another 10 or so.

But it's not really anecdotal, it's to do with the model and the physical features of the instruments.

My analysis would be that 1890s CMs are broadly equivalent to 1920s Roths - some outstanding, many good, a few rather indifferent, and a wide range of models, materials and workmanship.

[sospiri]

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:27 PM, Potter said:

So here are pics. My daughter has reattached to this one.

It's very pretty, but that is not a varnished instrument. It's lacquer which is very protective but tonally limiting.

[martin swan]

Some sorts of tone need to be limited ...

[Blank face]

Don't want to sound sarcastic, but the same with a sort of Laberte label would have been more economical, and possibly one could have bought the Ficker with the rest of the budget.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Don't want to sound sarcastic, but the same with a sort of Laberte label would have been more economical, and possibly one could have bought the Ficker with the rest of the budget.

I agree that in quality of tone and workmanship one could find an equivalent at a lower price tag, but the fact is that the Collin-Mézin brand sells. I think it's easier to sell a 1910 ish French trade violin with a CM label for $8000 than a 1910 French trade violin with a Laberte label for $4000.

So for this reason, given the family's agenda ie. the need to combine good sound and future saleability on a relatively limited budget, I think it's a good choice.

[GeorgeH]

 

1 minute ago, martin swan said:

So for this reason, given the family's agenda ie. the need to combine good sound and future saleability on a relatively limited budget, I think it's a good choice.

Well, she may have found her "lifetime" violin. Or the first one of her collection! 

[Blank face]

It's obvious that the saleability and price is often bound to the small paper stripe and signatures, but I have always sympathy for young artists liking old Markneukirchens and Mittenwald 3/4.

[sospiri]

20 hours ago, martin swan said:

Some sorts of tone need to be limited …

Lacquer is the opposite of a tone enhancer.