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Curtis Institute hires Cozen O’Connor to investigate sexual abuse claims

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9 hours ago, VicM said:

As an example only : if you are mugged in most EU countries and fail to immediately report the crime you can be prosecuted  and jailed. In most EU you have  hard obligation to report crime.

This is complete bullshit, there doesn't exist such an obligation, especially not in regard of sexual assaults and rape. It proves only that you are absolutely uninformed, and more bad, not interested in this matters. Traumatization works exactly the way that victims are often unable to talk and report about the crime, blaming and shaming them selves. If you want to be informed, start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome or shut up.

I can tell you that I'm very well experienced in all this, it happenned more than one time within my family and friends (without telling how many children and grandchildren I'm having, that's completely irrelevant). The whole discussion is a shame and deep offense for everybody being affected. It is giving room for every irresponsible internet moron to put dirt upon the face of victims and should be closed or deleted immediately by the moderator.

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10 hours ago, martin swan said:

I haven't quite worked out whether AltVcl and A432 are genuine knuckle-dragging unreconstructed cretins or whether they are just having a laugh ie. shit-stirring trolls. After all, nothing is sacred ...

Same sentiment.

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32 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The whole discussion is a shame and deep offense for everybody being affected. It is giving room for every irresponsible internet moron to put dirt upon the face of victims and should be closed or deleted immediately by the moderator.

Respect.

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

This is complete bullshit, there doesn't exist such an obligation, especially not in regard of sexual assaults and rape. It proves only that you are absolutely uninformed, and more bad, not interested in this matters. Traumatization works exactly the way that victims are often unable to talk and report about the crime, blaming and shaming them selves. If you want to be informed, start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome or shut up.

I can tell you that I'm very well experienced in all this, it happenned more than one time within my family and friends (without telling how many children and grandchildren I'm having, that's completely irrelevant). The whole discussion is a shame and deep offense for everybody being affected. It is giving room for every irresponsible internet moron to put dirt upon the face of victims and should be closed or deleted immediately by the moderator.

I agree with you on your second paragraph but you are wrong on the first paragraph. To my exact knowledge in all Eastern Block countries and in France, Spain, Italy there is a obligation to report crime and assist in detecting/solving/prosecuting crime even if one is not the victim and even if one just hears about it. Exactly the same in the USSR where I grew up.

I see to lines in present discussion : one is on if Lara St. John tells the truth or not. To debate this is in very bad taste. The other line is on what can be done/handled better in these type of situations. This is beneficial to discuss. I think the management of the school acted with criminal negligence. I am curious what other people here think on that.

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30 minutes ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

I agree with you on your second paragraph but you are wrong on the first paragraph. To my exact knowledge in all Eastern Block countries and in France, Spain, Italy there is a obligation to report crime and assist in detecting/solving/prosecuting crime even if one is not the victim and even if one just hears about it.

I guess you are confusing the obligation to report the knowledge of some planned or witnessed crimes. At least in Germany to my exact knowledge based on personal experience doesn't exist any obligation to report crimes when someone is victim, and therefore not as an EU regulation, and noone has to "go in jail for not doing this". Especially in regard of sexual crimes such a duty would be extremely retraumatizing. Imagine the victim of a rape would be put into jail for not reporting. This is usage only  in fundamentalistic dictatures, maybe what some posters are dreaming of.

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

I guess you are confusing the obligation to report the knowledge of some planned or witnessed crimes. At least in Germany to my exact knowledge based on personal experience doesn't exist any obligation to report crimes when someone is victim, and therefore not as an EU regulation, and noone has to "go in jail for not doing this". Especially in regard of sexual crimes such a duty would be extremely retraumatizing. Imagine the victim of a rape would be put into jail for not reporting. This is usage only  in fundamentalistic dictatures, maybe what some posters are dreaming of.

You can be right about "Germany". But I did not mention "Germany". I see VicM did not mention "Germany". Absolutely no doubt that people were legally obliged to report crime in East Germany. This was very hard enforced for political and economic crimes and maybe not at all for sexual crimes. But yes, people did go to jail for not reporting crime in "Germany". In the 1970"s I worked in two East German orchestras and I know in person people who gone to jail for not reporting ( political ) crime. Please contact me with your names, location and email address and I will put you in touch with them. Please let us not continue this line of discussion here. It is not in good taste. We can discuss in email or private message.

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51 minutes ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

You can be right about "Germany". But I did not mention "Germany". I see VicM did not mention "Germany". Absolutely no doubt that people were legally obliged to report crime in East Germany. This was very hard enforced for political and economic crimes and maybe not at all for sexual crimes. But yes, people did go to jail for not reporting crime in "Germany". In the 1970"s I worked in two East German orchestras and I know in person people who gone to jail for not reporting ( political ) crime. Please contact me with your names, location and email address and I will put you in touch with them. Please let us not continue this line of discussion here. It is not in good taste. We can discuss in email or private message.

Either we are talking in different directions or this is another attempt of distraction.

Neither GDR (East Germany) nor Soviet Union were ever part of the European Union, which was subjct of the post I referred to. More sort of fundamentalistic dictatures I was mentioning also. So what is this meant to prove here?

BTW, I'm being familiar enough with people jailed for political reasons, so I don't need neither private discussions nor contact. It's simply not what is discussed here.

No victim of a sexual assault in an actual EU country is obliged to report anything nor can be jailed if not doing this. Such an obligation or even blaming them for not doing this would be nothing than another criminal abuse. Clear now?

This is a really bizarre discussion.

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1 hour ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

You can be right about "Germany". But I did not mention "Germany". I see VicM did not mention "Germany". Absolutely no doubt that people were legally obliged to report crime in East Germany. This was very hard enforced for political and economic crimes and maybe not at all for sexual crimes. But yes, people did go to jail for not reporting crime in "Germany". In the 1970"s I worked in two East German orchestras and I know in person people who gone to jail for not reporting ( political ) crime. Please contact me with your names, location and email address and I will put you in touch with them. Please let us not continue this line of discussion here. It is not in good taste. We can discuss in email or private message.

Please do not reply or waste any time on this issue with "blank face". He knows everything and that is why we are doing so well with rape in Germany. Everybody is full of rights nobody has any responsibility and all criminals have excuses.

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43 minutes ago, VicM said:

Please do not reply or waste any time on this issue with "blank face". He knows everything and that is why we are doing so well with rape in Germany. Everybody is full of rights nobody has any responsibility and all criminals have excuses.

Sorry my friend but Blank Face is an esteemed member of Maestronet, and all the regulars here know him by name and have known him for many years. His comments are always measured and thoughtful, never inflammatory or aggressive or playing to the crowd.

You, on the other hand, are an anonymous new member who will need to post consistently for a good 5 years before we will show you the same level of respect.

So I don't know which gallery you are playing to, but you're going to get rotten tomatoes here on Maestronet.

Since you entered this discussion, you have moved the goalposts so many times that I'm just feeling dizzy.

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It's quite obvious for which gallery this poster(s) is or are playing since the mask has fallen and the face is unveiled: For those using phrasings like

1 hour ago, VicM said:

nobody has any responsibility and all criminals have excuses.

while excusing every sexistic and chauvinistic behaviour, suggesting to put victims into jail and talking in well known but-isms like "I believe her, but...."  It's a shame.

 

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Interesting discussion. I think the strong opinions are a byproduct of the growing pains modern society is experiencing with regard to treating women equally. The Western world is only just arriving at a point where at all levels of society, we expect for women to be treated and valued as well as men.

It is a massive swing of the pendulum. Even in ancient Greece, this level of equality was never seen, certainly never so widespread. And with any major swing of the pendulum, it will not stop right in the middle, it will, for many people, swing far the other way.

I can appreciate not believing every accusation against a man, and certainly the word of 1 person is just not enough to convict. However, context matters, and I think that if this guy has a history of this, then the story of the girl, long ago, becomes quite believable. Is it true? How could any of us say? But probably, given the context, it is not worth going to bat for the old man, who was certainly guilty of other instances of sexual assault. It could very well be that she is lying. I do find it strange that she would not tell the police, her parents, her friends, but she will tell the head honcho of the school? Did she know him well? Why was he more approachable than the rest of the adults in her life, at the age of 14? Just strange. 

Anyways, I won't say I believe her, because I believe in truth, which I can't for myself find out, but I don't have any cause to really doubt her story. I think regardless of whether she is telling the truth or not, it's important to stand up for women being abused, and one can do that without pretending to know the truth of any given situation. Very important for men in 2019 to say that sexual assault is not ok.

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I do not think it's relevant whether one believes St. John's claim or not, or whether one considers her teacher guilty of crime(s) or not. Because there was no investigation, we simply cannot know what happened--we can only choose to believe.

What IS relevant is that she reported this to an institution that was basically serving in loco parentis for a 14 year old girl. Their failure to investigate the matter fully (--and, I would assume, other similar complaints) certainly makes Curtis at fault. The only difference between Curtis and Ohio State (their wrestling scandal) is that public universities are required under Title IX to fully investigate every sexual harassment claim--which OSU failed to do, which makes them culpable and subject to massive lawsuits as well as possible criminal charges.

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1 hour ago, Porteroso said:

It could very well be that she is lying. I do find it strange that she would not tell the police, her parents, her friends, but she will tell the head honcho of the school? Did she know him well? Why was he more approachable than the rest of the adults in her life, at the age of 14? Just strange. 

Obviously he did tell her friends. It's a matter of fact that teenagers very often are trusting much more into peer groups and friends like other teenagers or adults outside of her family, for example teachers, priests etc. than in parents or unknown authorities like police officers. To construct something from this well known and scientifically documented fact is just another evidence of being uninformed.

54 minutes ago, crazy jane said:

What IS relevant is that she reported this to an institution that was basically serving in loco parentis for a 14 year old girl.

Exactly. If anybody was obliged to report the accusation to police, parents or other institiutions, and only in accordance with the minor, or protecting other students it was the school after getting knowledge. To blame a girl for not doing it is ignorance in the best case.

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How do any of us, especially as a traumatized child, choose who to tell what to?

Let's just say this happened to any 14 year old girl:

I have no issue with her reporting it to the head honcho (the person on top who should have dealt with the situation) and not telling her parents (because she was ashamed, or worried about what they would do) or the Police (because that might mean jail, or court) or her classmates  (because she was worried about peer opinion. "Slut!").

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His comments are always measured and thoughtful, never inflammatory or aggressive or playing to the crowd.

Objection, Your Honor : the witness is hallucinating.

You, on the other hand, are an anonymous new member who will need to post consistently for a good 5 years before we will show you the same level of respect.

Either fact and reason are the bottom line here, or popularity is (with seniority as a multiplier). In the first case, this is a place to discuss violins ; in the second, it is no different from a herd of cattle or a flock of chickens with their pecking orders and hierarchies.

Human rules or animal rules. It can't be both.

 

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50 minutes ago, A432 said:

 

 

Objection, Your Honor : the witness is hallucinating.

 

 

Either fact and reason are the bottom line here, or popularity is (with seniority as a multiplier). In the first case, this is a place to discuss violins ; in the second, it is no different from a herd of cattle or a flock of chickens with their pecking orders and hierarchies.

Human rules or animal rules. It can't be both.

 

So when we are on to it, I can assure you also, that Martin Swan is a highly esteemed member here since half an enternity, and I'm knowing him personally much longer as a well educated gentleman, being extremely civilized, always helpful and of excellent manners and diction. Everybody around here is knowing him exactly the same way as one of the most ethical and honorable persons. If you see him writing the word ARESHOLE, each reader knows as an absolute truth that he never would do such without long comtemplation and extraordinary serious facts and reasons.

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46 minutes ago, A432 said:

 

 

Objection, Your Honor : the witness is hallucinating.

 

 

Either fact and reason are the bottom line here, or popularity is (with seniority as a multiplier). In the first case, this is a place to discuss violins ; in the second, it is no different from a herd of cattle or a flock of chickens with their pecking orders and hierarchies.

Human rules or animal rules. It can't be both.

 

Well I know Blank Face personally and have discussed all matters with him equitably for nearly 10 years, whereas you I don't know from Adam, and everything you say seems boorish, ill-informed and patronising, cloaked in cod psychology and sociologhorrea.

It is the first refuge of an anonymous internet troll to say that facts are facts, and that peoples' reputations don't matter. And yet the significant players here on MNet all know each other - even if they disagree, they do it with civility and mutual respect. Many of the apparently anonymous posters who have standing here are in touch with each other privately, or share their names with people they wish to connect with as real people.

If you want a dose of reason or fact, just look at the egg you got on your face with your "Paganini with a file" campaign. You may call 10 highly knowledgeable people disagreeing with you "mob rule" - I call it you being wrong.

If you'd like to sum up your arguments as to why someone who allows herself to be photographed for a Bach cover revealing a bit of skin was obviously gagging for it when assaulted as a minor, perhaps we can take them apart too.

Shit-stirrers come and go on Maestronet - they aren't missed when they finally head off in search of more fertile pastures.

 

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As usual, Blankface, you are offering a strawman argument.

No one alleges that Martin is anything but a well-spoken, knowledgeable and good-hearted man, deservedly respected for his contributions.

You are defending something no one has attacked.

But his claim that your "comments are always measured and thoughtful, never inflammatory or aggressive or playing to the crowd." is -- giving it (and him) the benefit of every possible doubt -- a classic example of Orwelian doublethink, in which the truth of a matter depends on the agenda it supports/advances.

Again. On a personal level -- you, Blankie, as an individual, I find admirably perceptive and experienced. But you consistently show yourself unable to extract and grasp information when you are angry. It gets twisted into what you want it to be, and you honestly believe that your version of it is what it is.

" Your ongoing speech is to reduce women to objects of male obsessions and judgements, about "beauty" and " attractiveness/unattractiveness" ("no man would look twice at", what's an unbelieveable sexistic point of view) and directly leading to excusing crimes by "nature", followed by victim blaming, slut shaming, body shaming - just the usual strategy we are watching each time when it's about these themes."

" And still you don't realize what you're talking about, do you? Sounds like another excuse for pedophilia"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-integrationist/201702/psychopaths-sadists-and-the-lure-internet-aggression  "

Not, in my view, examples of always being "measured and thoughtful, never inflammatory or aggressive or playing to the crowd." 

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Bottom line : in Scottish jurisprudence, her allegation is Not Proven. And there the matter rests.  He is neither guilty nor not guilty.

Using her allegation as a pretext for displays of angry self-righteousness ("virtue signaling") is a separate, unrelated matter.

Conflating the two is demonstrating inability to think.

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And mistaking differences of opinion/interpretation as denying the value of someone's contributions or personal belittlement is beyond the pale. If that distinction is not grasped when it's pointed out (and it chronically isn't), discussion is rendered futile by intent.

A "troll" is anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion on something where legitimate differences of opinion are possible ?  And Groupthink is the touchstone of value ? Seems so.

Both are defining characteristics. Of what, I do not say.

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34 minutes ago, A432 said:

" Your ongoing speech is to reduce women to objects of male obsessions and judgements, about "beauty" and " attractiveness/unattractiveness" ("no man would look twice at", what's an unbelieveable sexistic point of view) and directly leading to excusing crimes by "nature", followed by victim blaming, slut shaming, body shaming - just the usual strategy we are watching each time when it's about these themes."

" And still you don't realize what you're talking about, do you? Sounds like another excuse for pedophilia"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-integrationist/201702/psychopaths-sadists-and-the-lure-internet-aggression  "

 

Nice to bring a sample, saves a lot of typing.

Though Martin found a better way to express the same within a single word.:rolleyes:

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18 hours ago, A432 said:

Bottom line : in Scottish jurisprudence, her allegation is Not Proven. And there the matter rests.  He is neither guilty nor not guilty.

The crux of the argument (at least for many of us) is NOT whether he was guilty.  The argument is two fold: 1. St. John reported it to the president of the institution and her allegations were dismissed; and 2. She came forward again at a time where she was in a safer place to report the conduct again, albeit decades later.  

Now, my problem with the counter-arguments is not the counter-argument itself.  Allegations are just that: allegations.  A few here are choosing to use her album cover (which happened years later) and her reputation (whether she is considered skilled or whether her level of fame needs rekindling) as excuses.  There are, at least in the US, rape shield rules and evidence rules that generally preclude reputation evidence, UNLESS the victim brings the issue into light.  St. John's conduct years later, and after the fact, is attenuated at least and are irrelevant to the issues. 

From a personal perspective, coming out for me was never about putting the offender behind bars or any other motive.  It was about being able to tell the story and move on.  No one truly knows St. John's motive in coming out.  But that doesn't change either of the two main points I made above.  This story will allow others to feel less inhibited in reporting unlawful behavior.  Subsequently, if an investigation shows nothing unlawful occurred, then shame on the alleged victim.  But if the unlawful behavior did occur, then we begin healing and creating a safer place for ourselves and children. 

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