Curtis Institute hires Cozen O’Connor to investigate sexual abuse claims

[matesic]

It baffles me how civilised adults can so often get drawn into this kind of "debate"

[Herman West]

23 minutes ago, matesic said:

It baffles me how civilised adults can so often get drawn into this kind of "debate"

Because it's about male privilige, which, unfortunately, is for some the basis of their acting civilised.

Once that privilige is compromised and formerly subordinate species, like women or POC, start talking back, civilisation is over.

[Blank face]

14 hours ago, martin swan said:

Areshole

We won't forget that this poster came up with things like "made up wifes bring more fun" or "13 years is the new 18", so everything isn't it just coherence?

I can't find much use in online discussions with any people excusing or relativizing criminal behaviour like it was within both the older threads. Just to keep my peace of mind.

[A432]

Noted in passing :

We won't forget

we won't stand for it

Congruence with collectivist mentality = righteousness = truth.

[VicM]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:23 PM, Stephen Fine said:

Yeah.  Shame on 14 year old Lara St. John.  SHAME ON HER!

She should have confronted him THEN!  BAD GIRL!

We must protect the sacred memory of her rapist.  After all, he was SUCH a GREAT teacher.

(see, now that's rape humor)

Side story:

I was recently summoned for jury duty involving a case of attempted murder with a man and his wife.  I was dismissed after voir dire, but since the case involved a history of sexual assault, the lawyers questioned the jury panel about history of sexual violence/abuse, and I was absolutely stunned by how many of the women had a history of chronic abuse from the men in their lives.  I mean, I've read horrifying statistics before, but hearing the stories from what seemed like most of the women on the panel... obviously, it was only like 25 women, so not a scientific sample size, but I left quite shaken.

PS- the presumption of innocence, while an essential part of the Common Law and trial by jury, needn't operate in everyday life outside the courtroom.  If I see a pattern of behavior, I can form my own opinions using common sense.  It is a pattern that young girls have trouble speaking out against their powerful male abusers.  It is a pattern that power corrupts.  It is a pattern that he raped his students.  So... my logic dictates that Lara St. John is obviously telling the truth, and that old man was a horrible pervert who never should have been allowed to continue teaching at the Curtis Institute.

One question for you : what if he did not rape her ? What are you going to do/say ? You seem very sure of your "logic". To make it clear : I would be extremely upset if one of my daughters would wake up with such story 35 years down the road instead of doing something as soon as possible and taking a sexual predator out of circulation. What about other pupils who were assaulted because she decided to do nothing ????

 

 

[Rue]

10 minutes ago, VicM said:

One question for you : what if he did not rape her ? What are you going to do/say ? You seem very sure of your "logic". To make it clear : I would be extremely upset if one of my daughters would wake up with such story 35 years down the road instead of doing something as soon as possible and taking a sexual predator out of circulation. What about other pupils who were assaulted because she decided to do nothing ????

If he did not assault the student, then this would be a horrible travesty.

However, she did not wake up with the story 35 years after the fact.  She reported the assault after it happened - and was ignored.  Now she's trying to do her part to make sure it doesn't keep happening.

I'm sure there were other students who were assaulted - because the ADULTS in charge swept it under the rug.  They are the ones at fault. 

[VicM]

37 minutes ago, A432 said:

Congruence with collectivist mentality = righteousness = truth.

You must not worry about them. Just a bunch of people with little life experience. I read the article(s) carefully  and I believe Lara. But on the strength of what is in the article(s) only a complete idiot will demand other people MUST believe her. Is it POSSIBLE that she misconstrued, exaggerated or is simply lying ? Yes, it is possible. There were ( unfortunately ) many cases.

[VicM]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

If he did not assault the student, then this would be a horrible travesty.

However, she did not wake up with the story 35 years after the fact.  She reported the assault after it happened - and was ignored.  Now she's trying to do her part to make sure it doesn't keep happening.

I'm sure there were other students who were assaulted - because the ADULTS in charge swept it under the rug.  They are the ones at fault. 

Read the article. Carefully. I HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS !!! Did she report THE RAPE to her parents ? What did her parents do ???

In the very unlikely case this did not happen ( again, I believe her ! ) she soiled the memory of a distinguished teacher. It seems many many students had no idea of this sort of behavior on his side. That doe not mean it did not happen to her.

[Rue]

9 minutes ago, VicM said:

You must not worry about them. Just a bunch of people with little life experience. I read the article(s) carefully  and I believe Lara. But on the strength of what is in the article(s) only a complete idiot will demand other people MUST believe her. Is it POSSIBLE that she misconstrued, exaggerated or is simply lying ? Yes, it is possible. There were ( unfortunately ) many cases.

Is this entire issue "simply" a male versus female 'reality' issue?  Because males are less likely to be assaulted?  Or perhaps less likely to be traumatized by physical contact?  Therefore 'men' don't understand the issue in the same manner that women do?

I had close calls.  I didn't imagine them.  And while a young woman might misconstrue the intent of a hug - she can not misconstrue the reality of sexual intercourse.

[Rue]

3 minutes ago, VicM said:

Read the article. Carefully. I HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS !!! Did she report THE RAPE to her parents ? What did her parents do ???

In the very unlikely case this did not happen ( again, I believe her ! ) she soiled the memory of a distinguished teacher. It seems many many students had no idea of this sort of behavior on his side. That doe not mean it did not happen to her.

I read the article carefully.  I have ONE daughter.  I have TWO sons.  So?  Does your having THREE daughters change the issue?

She reported this to ADULTS who did nothing.  I don't know what her parents knew about or did.  But they weren't the only adults that should have been keeping an eye on things.

In one of my close calls, I told my mother.  I asked her not to tell my dad.  I didn't want my dad to go ballistic and end up in jail.  There are all kinds of reasons why children do/don't tell.  But when something happens, to not be believed by the authorities.  OMG...what does that do to the psyche?

And, FWIW, if an adult assaults one child, it doesn't mean they will assault EVERY child.  They will pick on children that, for whatever reason, they think they can get away with it.

[VicM]

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

I read the article carefully.  I have ONE daughter.  I have TWO sons.  So?  Does your having THREE daughters change the issue?

She reported this to ADULTS who did nothing.  I don't know what her parents knew about or did.  But they weren't the only adults that should have been keeping an eye on things.

In one of my close calls, I told my mother.  I asked her not to tell my dad.  I didn't want my dad to go ballistic and end up in jail.  There are all kinds of reasons why children do/don't tell.  But when something happens, to not be believed by the authorities.  OMG...what does that do to the psyche?

And, FWIW, if an adult assaults one child, it doesn't mean they will assault EVERY child.  They will pick on children that, for whatever reason, they think they can get away with it.

No, you did not read the article carefully and there is big difference between having one daughter and having three daughters. I do not wish it on you : nine times the worries !

It does not matter the parents were not the only adults - what a nonsense ! The parents were the people ultimately responsible. You did the right thing and told your mother. Your mother decided not to tell your father. That is fine. Lara's parents either were not told or they were irresponsible idiots and did not trouble themselves to take the school to account. Why did Lara not take the step of informing other pupils  that they may be at risk of being raped by the teacher ??? Did she think a sexual predator is what other girls in that school should have to put up with ?

[Herman West]

I wish people would stop claiming the high ground saying "I have x daughters".

It's lame. People who have zero daughters have empathy, too.

Also, the USA is currently blessed with a president who has two daughters, one of whom he used to call a "nice piece of ass", while bragging to other men about grabbing and kissing women without asking.

I have one daughter. Hopefully that doesn't make any difference in the way I feel about cases such as Lara St John's.

[Stephen Fine]

11 minutes ago, VicM said:

No, you did not read the article carefully and there is big difference between having one daughter and having three daughters. I do not wish it on you : nine times the worries !

It does not matter the parents were not the only adults - what a nonsense ! The parents were the people ultimately responsible. You did the right thing and told your mother. Your mother decided not to tell your father. That is fine. Lara's parents either were not told or they were irresponsible idiots and did not trouble themselves to take the school to account. Why did Lara not take the step of informing other pupils  that they may be at risk of being raped by the teacher ??? Did she think a sexual predator is what other girls in that school should have to put up with ?

So... this is called victim blaming.  You shouldn't do it.  It's both ignorant and cruel.

She was 14, being abused by the most powerful person in her life, a person with the power to make or break her entire career.

And she did speak up.  She reported the man to his boss.

I don't have any daughters, but I have a student applying to Curtis this year and two violists I taught attended.

I've had students tell me important things that they don't tell their parents.  Talking to parents can be difficult.

[VicM]

38 minutes ago, Herman West said:

I wish people would stop claiming the high ground saying "I have x daughters".

It's lame. People who have zero daughters have empathy, too.

Also, the USA is currently blessed with a president who has two daughters, one of whom he used to call a "nice piece of ass", while bragging to other men about grabbing and kissing women without asking.

I have one daughter. Hopefully that doesn't make any difference in the way I feel about cases such as Lara St John's.

You like to hear yourself talking. Quite obvious from your posts. I did not claim "high ground". I have empathy. People with sons have empathy. All decent people have empathy. I do not care about the US president. Maybe he is disgusting but then you elected him. Next time do not elect a TV show person as president. That is stupid.

I am glad you have a daughter and I am sure you understand how the worries multiply. I wish you and your daughter the absolute best. I come from BIG families. We were six brothers and sisters and my mother has 11 brothers and sisters. My father five.

[martin swan]

23 minutes ago, VicM said:

You like to hear yourself talking.

Don't think Herman's alone in that ... isn't it a condition of participation in an online forum?

We are all living in bad faith here. The extreme versions of that would be virtue signalling at one end of the spectrum and shit-stirring / trolling at the other.

I haven't quite worked out whether AltVcl and A432 are genuine knuckle-dragging unreconstructed cretins or whether they are just having a laugh ie. shit-stirring trolls. After all, nothing is sacred ...

[VicM]

44 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

So... this is called victim blaming.  You shouldn't do it.  It's both ignorant and cruel.

She was 14, being abused by the most powerful person in her life, a person with the power to make or break her entire career.

And she did speak up.  She reported the man to his boss.

I don't have any daughters, but I have a student applying to Curtis this year and two violists I taught attended.

I've had students tell me important things that they don't tell their parents.  Talking to parents can be difficult.

No, this is NOT victim blaming. Pointing  errors in the actions of a victim is not victim blaming and it is done all the time. It is NOT Lara's fault that she was sexually assaulted, maybe even raped by her teacher. But her not reporting the crime to the appropriate people ( legal guardian, authorities ) she kept  sexual predator in business for another 10-15 years. As the father of three daughters I would VERY upset by such behavior. I can understand it and I can have plenty empathy but I will not be happy about it and I would not find it excusable.

 

 

[VicM]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Don't think Herman's alone in that ... isn't it a condition of participation in an online forum?

We are all living in bad faith here. The extreme versions of that would be virtue signalling at one end of the spectrum and shit-stirring / trolling at the other.

I haven't quite worked out whether AltVcl and A432 are genuine knuckle-dragging unreconstructed cretins or whether they are just having a laugh ie. shit-stirring trolls. After all, nothing is sacred ...

I agree with you. My point which I maybe constructed badly is that we should keep a cooler head and not go overboard with the moral high ground. I apologize if I upset anybody but I also would like to be allowed my opinion. I did go through some similar problems raising three daughters. I am sure you understand.

[Rue]

You can't expect a 14-year old to think like an adult. That fact that she reported it to begin with already attests to a remarkable level of maturity.

Then - being ignored - taught her to shut up.

[Stephen Fine]

31 minutes ago, VicM said:

No, this is NOT victim blaming. Pointing errors in the actions of a victim is not victim blaming and it is done all the time. It is NOT Lara's fault that she was sexually assaulted, maybe even raped by her teacher. But her not reporting the crime to the appropriate people ( legal guardian, authorities ) she kept  sexual predator in business for another 10-15 years. As the father of three daughters I would VERY upset by such behavior. I can understand it and I can have plenty empathy but I will not be happy about it and I would not find it excusable.

You're splitting hairs.

You say you believe her.  That means you believe that she told the President of Curtis.

But this isn't enough?  She needed to tell her parents or the police?  What if she DID tell her parents?  Would that absolve her of all blame in your eyes?  Or would she also then need to tell the police if her parents didn't act.  What if she did tell the police as well?  What if they didn't act, as was and is so common in these cases? What then?  Would you still blame her for not quitting violin and picketing the school?  At what point has the 14 year old girl done enough?

Victim blaming places all or some portion of the blame for the acts of the offender on the victim.

I would argue that the onus is entirely on the school to create a safe environment and entirely on the man to not be a rapist.  Acting like a 14 year old girl should have the skills to deal with a powerful and skilled manipulator is what makes you seem ignorant.  14 year olds are clever, but they're pretty susceptible to social pressure.  It's well-known about them.  Child predators depend upon it.

[VicM]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

You can't expect a 14-year old to think like an adult. That fact that she reported it to begin with already attests to a remarkable level of maturity.

Then - being ignored - taught her to shut up.

Exactly my point. My rule was "tell me everything !". 

[VicM]

5 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

You're splitting hairs.

You say you believe her.  That means you believe that she told the President of Curtis.

But this isn't enough?  She needed to tell her parents or the police?  What if she DID tell her parents?  Would that absolve her of all blame in your eyes?  Or would she also then need to tell the police if her parents didn't act.  What if she did tell the police as well?  What if they didn't act, as was and is so common in these cases? What then?  Would you still blame her for not quitting violin and picketing the school?  At what point has the 14 year old girl done enough?

Victim blaming places all or some portion of the blame for the acts of the offender on the victim.

I would argue that the onus is entirely on the school to create a safe environment and entirely on the man to not be a rapist.  Acting like a 14 year old girl should have the skills to deal with a powerful and skilled manipulator is what makes you seem ignorant.  14 year olds are clever, but they're pretty susceptible to social pressure.  It's well-known about them.  Child predators depend upon it.

No, YOU are splitting hairs and in the process you letting the perpetrator to go free. I believe there was sexual abuse and I believe she told the president of Curtis. I believe the president took the convenient way out. Seen this happen before. I do not blame her for being sexually abused. I blame her for not telling her parents and if she did (?) I blame her parents for not taking vigorous action. As an example only : if you are mugged in most EU countries and fail to immediately report the crime you can be prosecuted  and jailed. In most EU you have  hard obligation to report crime. That is not "victim blaming".  Also, when you say "Acting like a 14 year old girl should have the skills to deal with a powerful and skilled manipulator is what makes you seem ignorant" you are massively distorting what I said which was right exactly the opposite. I do NOT expect a 14 year old girl to have such skills and that is why I expect ( ZERO tolerance !!!)  her to tell me immediately. The school can not create a safe environment if students do not report the problems. 

I think your heart is in the right place but you jump the gun, you try say/do too much. I am confident there was sexually inappropriate behavior but I do not know if it amounted to rape. All I know is that she claims she was raped and he claimed he did not do it. That is also all you know. Like decent human beings we give her benefit of doubt and we give him benefit of doubt.   That is not close to enough to call him "rapist" in a public forum when the vast majority of his students has only nice things to say about him. See what H. Hahn says about him just as for one example. When his family sues you for defamation you can not use a newspaper article as "proof". 

[crazy jane]

This is not realistic. Many young people simply cannot tell their parents, for various reasons--shame, fear, a sense of failure, and self-blame being some. I had a student who was being molested by her stepfather at the ages 14-16. When she told her mother, it was first met with complete disbelief, followed by blame directed at her (daughters of Eve, you know), followed by shame (on the part of the whole family).

As a teacher, I have been the confidant of students on many issues they have been unable to air to *anyone*--but particularly their parents. Not just abuse, but extreme depression and suicidal thoughts.

This is one of the reasons we now have (and need) Title IX, which was in place at the time when Lara St. John first reported her alleged harassment.

 

[VicM]

42 minutes ago, crazy jane said:

This is not realistic. Many young people simply cannot tell their parents, for various reasons--shame, fear, a sense of failure, and self-blame being some. I had a student who was being molested by her stepfather at the ages 14-16. When she told her mother, it was first met with complete disbelief, followed by blame directed at her (daughters of Eve, you know), followed by shame (on the part of the whole family).

As a teacher, I have been the confidant of students on many issues they have been unable to air to *anyone*--but particularly their parents. Not just abuse, but extreme depression and suicidal thoughts.

This is one of the reasons we now have (and need) Title IX, which was in place at the time when Lara St. John first reported her alleged harassment.

 

I understand where you come from and in most cases I agree with you. But then where do you draw the line ? Keeping other pupils safe from sexual predators may be a case where you have to draw the line even if many other reasons can be found not to. At each every stage in life our children/pupils must be capable of a certain degree of functionality. If that is absent we can not blame others. For example if my 7 year old is run over by a bus when walking to school I can not blame the school for being located away from my residence or the State for compelling children to attend school. It is one of those "tough luck" things. Either I failed to "educate" the child or he was too ... incompetent or the bus driver was negligent etc. Yes, there is here and there an idiot mother who blames the daughter. Very bad situation but not a reason to excuse failure to report. I realize that this may be contrary to how things are done in the US but then how things are dome over there does not seem to work that well : every solution just seem to create more problems.

[violinnewb]

Wait. Take a minute and breathe. Everyone.

this incident took place in the 1980s. I said it before, it was a much different time then. Not only did most teenagers not talk to their parents back then (which is still the general case), but a 14 year old whose life was 80% violin...can you imagine? What did she know of the real world? Not much. She likely did not have the same social skills that a run of the mill 14 year old did. Maybe. Who knows? But we do know she said something to the highest person of authority she could think of.

 

When something this awful happens to you, I’m sure most people don’t take a calm and logical approach to getting help. This kind of abuse is deep. It really mind f—ks your soul. It makes you feel like shit. For Ms. St. John to have even approached the president of Curtis...that took guts.

[A432]

Quote

If we had strawberries, we could have strawberry shortcake . . . if we had shortcake.

That's a good way to make gentle fun of wishful thinking when it's going unrecognized.

Same deal here.

She said.

He said.

And in light of his advanced age at the time, in conjunction with the in-house investigation finding and his sterling reputation overall, there is simply no warrant for continuing to agitate over this. None.

But accepting that would mean people seeking excitement wouldn't have a soap opera, and our would-be moral exemplars wouldn't have a soap box to pontificate from. Clearly an unsatisfactory outcome from their perspective.

So we suppose that there were strawberries, and suppose that there was shortcake, insisting that all discussion be predicated on believing this. And reviling those who spoil the fun by refusing to go along with the gag.

But allowing emotional conviction to hijack reason (and common sense), while popular (just look around), is dysfunctional.