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Casein as a Sealer Questions


scordatura

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31 minutes ago, scordatura said:

Just to clarify, the casein sealer was stated by Greiner in his section of the book. Joe is disagreeing with that and not the testing methodology or the results per say in Brandmair's section. It seems to me that even though the number and physical size of samples is limited, there might be some way to determine the amount of and frequency of protein/amino acids across the samples in the various strata. This might show if the protein found was accidental contamination or not. Any thoughts on this?

Yes.

I find it significant and refreshing that Ms. Brandmair does not equivocate or speculate about the findings.  She is a scientist foremost.  Remember that she is also a certified luthier.

on we go,

Joe

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3 hours ago, joerobson said:

Yes.

I find it significant and refreshing that Ms. Brandmair does not equivocate or speculate about the findings.  She is a scientist foremost.  Remember that she is also a certified luthier.

on we go,

Joe

Certified by whom?

Not that I don't find her insights interesting and valuable.

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23 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

What sort of "master's degree"? These can be anything from self-bestowed, to assigned by high-level peers in the trade.

From her website: vitae

Brigitte Brandmair is a self-employed, autonomous and internationally active certified conservator for musical instruments. She holds a degree of the Cologne University of Applied Sciences at the Cologne Institute of Conservation Sciences. She majored in the conservation, analysis and documentation of antique instruments, with the focus being on classical Italian stringed instruments.

In addition to her scientific expertise, she also holds a master degree as a plucked instrument maker and an apprenticeship as a carpenter, which allows her a comprehensive approach in scientific musical instruments matters. She is currently involved in several international research projects. Besides Brigitte's activities as a conservator for musical instruments matters, she is giving lectures and publishing articles.

Brigitte is one of the two editors and authors of the standards setting publication “Stradivari Varnish”.

 

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21 minutes ago, joerobson said:

From her website: vitae

Brigitte Brandmair is a self-employed, autonomous and internationally active certified conservator for musical instruments. She holds a degree of the Cologne University of Applied Sciences at the Cologne Institute of Conservation Sciences. She majored in the conservation, analysis and documentation of antique instruments, with the focus being on classical Italian stringed instruments.

In addition to her scientific expertise, she also holds a master degree as a plucked instrument maker and an apprenticeship as a carpenter, which allows her a comprehensive approach in scientific musical instruments matters. She is currently involved in several international research projects. Besides Brigitte's activities as a conservator for musical instruments matters, she is giving lectures and publishing articles.

Brigitte is one of the two editors and authors of the standards setting publication “Stradivari Varnish”.

 

Uhm, OK. I'm not sure how that really tells me (or anyone) much.

Yeah, she is very pretty and engaging, but I try to put such things aside when making professional evaluations. ;)

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Uhm, OK. I'm not sure how that really tells me (or anyone) much.

Yeah, she is very pretty and engaging, but I try to put such things aside when making professional evaluations. ;)

Are you calling into question the validity of the testing or do you have issues with Greiner's or her findings?

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The links are to an instrument Greiner made in 2016. Granted images are not as good as viewing in person but they look pretty nice. I would assume from this date that he used a casein sealer. That is unless he has changed his mind. The high res images can be enlarged it you click on them. Might take two clicks.

Peter-Greiner-Front-C-J-A-Beare-1.jpg

Peter-Greiner-Back-C-J-A-Beare-1.jpg

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Brandmair's research is not done in a vacuum. Moreover, her methodology is professional in my experience as a research scientist. She presents the data, analysis, and conclusions.

The fact that she is a woman is irrelevant and should not have been raised even as a joke. :angry:

Another point: If you haven't read the B&G book a few times, get it before commenting. 

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50 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Brandmair's research is not done in a vacuum. Moreover, her methodology is professional in my experience as a research scientist. She presents the data, analysis, and conclusions.

The fact that she is a woman is irrelevant and should not have been raised even as a joke. :angry:

Another point: If you haven't read the B&G book a few times, get it before commenting. 

I completely agree -  Who cares if the research was done by a woman. Her appearance is not relevant either.    

B&G book is well worth the read - we just need a smaller paperback edition! :D

 

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Any scientific research has to be taken with some cautiousness. Scientists in general speak about things they can identify but in most cases (maybe because it is obvious to them) they don't really explain what a certain method can't unveil. In the end no scientific paper can presents as a result a recipe or procedure. Findings a sort of atomize the whole aspect of varnish to some identifiable substances. But we have to be grateful to all researchers spending long time to identify whatever they can identify. 

The really tricky part is how to translate it into a practial method building a recipe, and if it comes to pre 1800 recipes, it should in theory align with known methods of the same time period. 

Just the finding amino acids seems to be an interesting stone of the whole puzzle , but as said above by Joe Robson, does not have a compulsive conclusion to one ingredient, worse it could show simply some contamination as well.

Identified amino acids aside, we have to be very aware that no violin maker in the 18th century could buy his ingredients in a purified form in a chemical supply shop and would therefore work with substances having the desired goal in mind. If the employed substance had some contaminations (makers back then didn't know about) we can today identify them with our refined equipent but thinking about why it was in the varnish we are scratching our heads. (For example some EDAX findings show Molybdenum)

In the end we have no other choice to try and test our own hypothesis about it and compare it to original instruments. And at this point we are hitting two aspects. Does it work visually and how does it work soundwise? 

Now for casein we can safely say that it was employed in 18h century Italian workshops as glue (Hargrave wrote in the 1980s an article about Casein as a glue for the ribs on a Tononi cello) and that in the same time period it was used by painters in different receipes. So I would not completely dismiss it.

The real question if it was used, how it was used. IMO each ingredient has to make sense for the whole. Just to put a layer of a Casein ground doesn't make sense if it doesn't fulfill a certainl function. What I miss most often in this context is  that scientists almost always don't specify where the probe was taken.

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think violin makers in the 18th century treated spruce exactly the same way they treated maple in particular for the ground or anything which comes close to the wood surface. In my personal view a Casein layer (if it was used) makes more sense on spruce than on maple. 

The quoted example of Stefan Peter Greiners work in this sense is a good example for a possible interpretation. All I can say about Greiner is that he seems to be obsessed with finding in each violin a certain sound quality, so I see his interpretation more focused on sound than anything else. (Just in optical terms,  the top of the shown violin lacks contrast between summer year rings and winter year rings.)

Personally I am more intrested now in how things were applied. One very undiscussed topic is how diluted  liquids have been applied which can make for most varnish components a pretty big difference in their optical proportions.

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Lobotomy was considered a great scientific achievement too.  The creator of the surgery was a Portuguese neurologist, who got a Nobel Prize for his discovery. Thalidomide was good for pregnant women too, and mercury was very good for syphilis patients.

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16 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Lobotomy was considered a great scientific achievement too.  The creator of the surgery was a Portuguese neurologist, who got a Nobel Prize for his discovery. Thalidomide was good for pregnant women too, and mercury was very good for syphilis patients.

Manfio, you might get a kick out of this:

Perhaps you've heard of the Louis and Clark expedition, the first expedition to cross the western portion of the United States.  Modern historians are able to locate their original campsites, because of the high mercury levels.  (The expedition had quite a problem with syphilis, and had brought mercury along with them to treat it)

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3 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Manfio, you might get a kick out of this:

Perhaps you've heard of the Louis and Clark expedition, the first expedition to cross the western portion of the United States.  Modern historians are able to locate their original campsites, because of the high mercury levels.  (The expedition had quite a problem with syphilis, and had brought mercury along with them to treat it)

Interesting! Thanks for that!

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2 hours ago, MANFIO said:

Interesting! Thanks for that!

Captain Meriwether Lewis suffered a rapid decline after the expedition, culminating in his death at the age of 35 (thought to be a suicide). It's unclear whether the decline was caused by mercury poisoning, advanced syphilis, or some combination of the two.

Curiously, there was no mention of such things in our school history books. :lol:

Back when I was a kid, at least, every "American hero" was presented as being virtuous, and a model to follow. :wacko:

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30 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Captain Meriwether Lewis suffered a rapid decline after the expedition, culminating in his death at the age of 35 (thought to be a suicide). It's unclear whether the decline was caused by mercury poisoning, advanced syphilis, or some combination of the two.

Curiously, there was no mention of such things in our school history books. :lol:

Ha! Yes, syphilis was an ever presente problem in our society till recent times. It had a huge impact in the lives of many composers and musicians.

Benvenuto Cellini, on his book "Life", an autobiography, mentions that syphilis was known in Italy as "mal francese" (French disease), and by the French as "mal di Napoli".

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15 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Ha! Yes, syphilis was an ever presente problem in our society till recent times. It had a huge impact in the lives of many composers and musicians.

Benvenuto Cellini, on his book "Life", an autobiography, mentions that syphilis was known in Italy as "mal francese" (French disease), and by the French as "mal di Napoli".

And it's reportedly on the rise again...

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15 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Ha! Yes, syphilis was an ever presente problem in our society till recent times. It had a huge impact in the lives of many composers and musicians.

Benvenuto Cellini, on his book "Life", an autobiography, mentions that syphilis was known in Italy as "mal francese" (French disease), and by the French as "mal di Napoli".

It all gets pretty funny, doesn't it?  A game of "blame the other guy".

Dang those Brazilians! ;)

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6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

It all gets pretty funny, doesn't it?  A game of "blame the other guy".

Dang those Brazilians! ;)

Think of it this way.  Some kind of trade-specific contagion strikes luthiers.  We'd say it was all the Chinese instruments entering the market.  The Chinese would blame us for tariff-born disease.  Oberlin workshops would blame each other.  And the Brazilians and Italians still would blame each other.:D

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18 minutes ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

And it's reportedly on the rise again...

Well, it would help if you could put aside your wanton ways, you handsome charmer you. :)

Just kidding. I have never known Julian to be anything other than a model of propriety, aside from his tolerating my various sorts of "politically incorrect" humor.

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