Sign in to follow this  
germain

Arthur Vigneron

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, A432 said:

Philip -- FWIW, a JAV violin bow plays like a 'cello bow, and for the same reason : the geometry of it. When you combine a high head with a low frog, you get a hair ribbon with a lot of "give" at the frog end. Tourte school in a nutshell. Peccatte raised the frog, evening it out ; Voirin lowered both, with Sartori beefing up the throat. The rest is about graduations, bellies, cambres & wood.

At first read this sounds quite impressive but in fact it's complete nonsense. Would you like me to break it down with reference to some actual examples or do you want to move straight to the logical fallacy part of the argument?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, martin swan said:

At first read this sounds quite impressive but in fact it's complete nonsense. Would you like me to break it down with reference to some actual examples or do you want to move straight to the logical fallacy part of the argument?

Martin, if you have the time, feel free to disseminate for those of us who wish to learn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sospiri said:

Martin, if you have the time, feel free to disseminate for those of us who wish to learn.

Well, in A432's post it's a bit unclear whether we're discussing Tourte, Peccatte, Vigneron, Voirin or Sartori (sic), but the main thrust of his argument is that the geometry of a Vigneron is quite unlike that of a Peccatte, and therefore it lacks consonantal articulation, plays like a cello bow, and won't project past the third row. Or so Bill Salchow allegedly said ...

We have 4 Dominique Peccattes and 2 JA Vignerons right now. The frog heights on these Dominique Peccattes are 19.5, 20, 20 and 21mm (at the ferrule), the Vignerons are respectively 20 and 20.5 . So no difference there. The heads are for Dominique Peccatte 20.5, 21, 21.5 and 22, the Vignerons 21 and 21.5.

Judging by past performance, measurement and demonstrable evidence are both irrelevant to A432 so I'm sure he won't change his mind. However, for more fact-based Maestronet users, the differences between a Dominique Peccatte and a Vigneron are largely in cross-section of the stick and graduation. Plus of course the very obvious stylistic differences and different construction methods.

Camber is something that changes over time and it's hard to be sure of the historical path, but one thing we can say for certainty is that the Tourte camber was straight for the first half to 2/3 of the bow's length, and that early-mid 19th century bows tended to have more clearance in the lower part of the stick - not at the nut of course since camber doesn't affect this, but noticeably in the second quarter of the stick.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well, in A432's post it's a bit unclear whether we're discussing Tourte, Peccatte, Vigneron, Voirin or Sartori (sic), but the main thrust of his argument is that the geometry of a Vigneron is quite unlike that of a Peccatte, and therefore it lacks consonantal articulation, plays like a cello bow, and won't project past the third row. Or so Bill Salchow allegedly said ...

A432 is making a game out of obfuscation. It does have some entertainment value, and if it helps debunk some dogma that that's good too.

Consonantal articulation?? Is that another name for that attack phase?

22 minutes ago, martin swan said:

We have 4 Dominique Peccattes and 2 JA Vignerons right now. The frog heights on these Dominique Peccattes are 19.5, 20, 20 and 21mm (at the ferrule), the Vignerons are respectively 20 and 20.5 . So no difference there. The heads are for Dominique Peccatte 20.5, 21, 21.5 and 22, the Vignerons 21 and 21.5.

So the frogs are about 1mm lower than the heads for both makers?

22 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Judging by past performance, measurement and demonstrable evidence are both irrelevant to A432 so I'm sure he won't change his mind. However, for more fact-based Maestronet users, the differences between a Dominique Peccatte and a Vigneron are largely in cross-section of the stick and graduation. Plus of course the very obvious stylistic differences and different construction methods.

Camber is something that changes over time and it's hard to be sure of the historical path, but one thing we can say for certainty is that the Tourte camber was straight for the first half to 2/3 of the bow's length, and that early-mid 19th century bows tended to have more clearance in the lower part of the stick - not at the nut of course since camber doesn't affect this, but noticeably in the second quarter of the stick.

 

Are these differences related to an evolution in bow design or are they mainly stylistic differences?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Evolution" implies progress - I'm not sure that there has really been any progress since Tourte's time. Everyone I know who's played a good Tourte, Persoit, Grand Adam or Fonclause just immediately feels that they do everything a bow should. 

I don't think you can debunk dogma by replacing it with incorrect information. Dogma can only be debunked by better observation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job again, Martin. I was writing from (apparently) spotty memory. If I could find the xerox copies I made (ca. 1984) of the head & frog tracings / measurements that BS made of the various good bows that passed through his shop, we might or might not have a debate. But as I can't, we don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the bow in question. Just tried the  chords in the Brahms aka triple stops. It was pretty much all kah kah kah. IDK could this depend on the player haha ??? For the haters of CF bows my Arcus Cadenza Gold gets through long rehearsals of a Mahler symphonies and other monstrosities like no other. At 46 grams it’s like holding a 3/4 bow. When I play chamber music and solo repertoire I’m considering this one... hopefully when I’m ready to sell it I‘ll be able to recover and make some $

39F0D478-1413-4DC8-832D-E8A956B16DA1.jpeg

AE495497-EF6A-439A-90E0-C3D811E039FF.jpeg

1E75FAF1-51C6-4C20-8686-015FC256B7AE.jpeg

D58F3454-0C3E-4454-89FE-7B723C205C78.jpeg

5D6D471D-9702-46A7-8160-45E904D585A9.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading about him, it seems that his work was pretty variable ; the qualities I remember from playing apparently don't apply all of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, chrissweden said:

nice fiddle what is it

Violin is Thibout circa 1855. As far as the bow pictured as Martin said Raffin certificate states VIGNERON pere/fils 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, germain said:

Not sure what you mean? 

A Simon in mint condition would retail for over £60k ... so the low estimate is about 50% of retail, seems quite reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, martin swan said:

Not sure what you mean? 

A Simon in mint condition would retail for over £60k ... so the low estimate is about 50% of retail, seems quite reasonable.

Just a hefty price... even at 50% discount 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, germain said:

Just a hefty price... even at 50% discount 

Not in my book - I've seen this bow and the condition is extraordinary.

Maybe you aren't quite up to date with prices for Peccatte school makers? here's an extract from the Neuetaxe  - typically their top price is for an good example free of condition issues, rather than an outstanding collector's example. 

 

1440455704_simonprices.thumb.png.08555a605f6deae48535502d047afd94.png

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Martin, slightly off topic but if you have L`archet, has it any bows by Jean Simon?

Nothing - just a brief footnote in the listing for Nicolas Simon (younger brother to Jean) saying that his work isn't known, though he may have trained Voirin ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, martin swan said:

Not in my book - I've seen this bow and the condition is extraordinary.

Maybe you aren't quite up to date with prices for Peccatte school makers? here's an extract from the Neuetaxe  - typically their top price is for an good example free of condition issues, rather than an outstanding collector's example. 

 

1440455704_simonprices.thumb.png.08555a605f6deae48535502d047afd94.png

 

 

Yes definitely not up to date with that price range...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8C0FCDF8-41EA-4019-91F7-2B94C270747C.thumb.jpeg.fb9e154476ea032e48523aa9f9975beb.jpegWhat can you guys tell me about this bow. I have to get rid of some of my other bows to be able to buy the Vigneron. This one an example of my better ones. Who made PILLOT branded bows? 

B768F9EC-449B-4E4A-9648-0362ACD68322.jpeg

9BE4E9B5-C164-4B98-B3A7-840013DF9C00.jpeg

AF4CF642-C392-4038-8B9E-A66C30ACED7A.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They were made by various shops ,if i recall ef  & emile ouchard being one. Ive seen and had various others but cant recall exactly who made them. But probably the usual culprits like Bazins, Morizots etc...also i think from some of the big wholesalers like JTL etc...

Yours looks like one of the better ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of them came from Morizot. Best case E.A Ouchard which yours is not :(

Yours looks like a Morizot freres but the head is not clear enough (lack of contrast) to positively identify. Also the vuillaume slide makes me wonder if it's not just JTL...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.