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An Interesting Question

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7 minutes ago, Rue said:

A chapel is, by definition, sacred.

A shared moment of humor isn't - unless you're laughing with God ^_^. Special? Sure, why not? Sacred? No.

And whether the church abused rock-carrying workmen or not -  is irrelevant to the point that the chapel is sacred.

Yup, Stephen is a snowflake ...

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Yup, Stephen is a snowflake ...

Snow, under the right conditions, can be gloriously beautiful, and even inspiring.  Leave the snow out of this......  :ph34r:  ;):lol:

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18 hours ago, Rue said:

A chapel is, by definition, sacred.

A shared moment of humor isn't - unless you're laughing with God ^_^. Special? Sure, why not? Sacred? No.

And whether the church abused rock-carrying workmen or not -  is irrelevant to the point that the chapel is sacred.

??

Sacred to whom?  Who are you to define what is and isn't sacred?  I didn't say it wasn't sacred, I said it wasn't more sacred than my moment shared with friends.

It really takes some nerve to just assume that everyone views a Christian chapel as sacred.  Whether or not something is sacred is entirely personal.

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7 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

I don't even know what that means.  But you sound like a Christian.

I like snowflakes.  I like Christians.  You guys are a riot!

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9 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

I don't even know what that means.  But you sound like a Christian.

No, just not someone who would be offended by the presence of a Christian chapel on top of a Swiss Alp ...

However, I am someone who is deeply offended by the way we are all now constantly required to share the private space of someone else's smartphone.

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5 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

??

Sacred to whom?  Who are you to define what is and isn't sacred?  I didn't say it wasn't sacred, I said it wasn't more sacred than my moment shared with friends.

It really takes some nerve to just assume that everyone views a Christian chapel as sacred.  Whether or not something is sacred is entirely personal.

I ain't definin' nothin...however Miriam-Webster offers this definition.  Other dictionaries offer up similar examples.

Who mentioned Christianity?  Sacred doesn't equate wholly with Christianity.

 

Quote

 

Definition of sacred

1a: dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity, a tree sacred to the gods

b: devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose)a fund sacred to charity
2a: worthy of religious veneration : HOLY
b: entitled to reverence and respect
3: of or relating to religion : not secular or profane,sacred music

 

 

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2 minutes ago, martin swan said:

No, just not someone who would be offended by the presence of a Christian chapel on top of a Swiss Alp ...

I said I was mildly irritated.

Just now, Rue said:

I ain't definin' nothin...however Miriam-Webster offers this definition.  Other dictionaries offer up similar examples.

Who mentioned Christianity?  Sacred doesn't equate wholly with Christianity.

 

 

Well, seeing as how it was a Christian chapel in my story, I'm the one who said something about Christianity.

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1 minute ago, Stephen Fine said:

I said I was mildly irritated.

... by the presence of a Christian chapel on top of a Swiss Alp.

Can I recommend the Djebel Toubkal or maybe Kilamanjaro - you'd probably be safe there.

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1 minute ago, martin swan said:

... by the presence of a Christian chapel on top of a Swiss Alp.

Can I recommend the Djebel Toubkal or maybe Kilamanjaro - you'd probably be safe there.

I can suffer mild irritation and still enjoy the sacred splendor of the great outdoors and the sacred brotherhood of man.

The question is, can you?

I was hoping my anecdote which was strikingly similar to your own would broaden your perspective.  But instead, you chose to take offense.

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14 minutes ago, martin swan said:

However, I am someone who is deeply offended by the way we are all now constantly required to share the private space of someone else's smartphone.

Apologies, I now see that you weren't mildly irritated.  Funny how people who use the word snowflake are often "deeply offended" by something that I view as trivial.

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46 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

I don't even know what that means.  But you sound like a Christian.

Please lighten up.  You're starting to sound like a certain strident lady from Lubbock, whose polemics we've all stepped in here occasionally.  We don't need a riot incited.

image.png.2418ceb4303f1eed343f3af70961228a.png

Just curious, you related to Larry Fine?   Besides being an actor, he was a talented violinist.  :)

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On 10/30/2019 at 9:04 AM, Stephen Fine said:

I can suffer mild irritation and still enjoy the sacred splendor of the great outdoors and the sacred brotherhood of man.

The question is, can you?

I was hoping my anecdote which was strikingly similar to your own would broaden your perspective.  But instead, you chose to take offense.

I love the way "our people" :lol:, have this wonderful way of slighting Christianity and then being surprised when people take offense...

Your anecdote is not perspective broadening as much as it is seemingly intentionally a negative swipe at Christians and Christian religion.

You see it's not so much that you have a problem with a building being built on top of a mountain , the problem you have is that you have a problem with it being a Christian building, so it seems. 

You could have told the same story and left out the "Christian" part and just been upset that a building was built, but no, you had to label it, and now as we see, anytime one does that, it tends to be offensive to someone.

I mean when I went to the Temple Mount I thought to myself "wow, what a stupid place for a building, what kind of idiots would drag these rocks all the way up here in the middle of a desert?" fortunately when I say that I can offend all 3 major religions at the same time.

 

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On 10/30/2019 at 9:26 AM, Violadamore said:

Please lighten up.  You're starting to sound like a certain strident lady from Lubbock, whose polemics we've all stepped in here occasionally.  We don't need a riot incited.

image.png.2418ceb4303f1eed343f3af70961228a.png

Just curious, you related to Larry Fine?   Besides being an actor, he was a talented violinist.  :)

Thanks for sharing; I didn't know that about "porcupine."  lulz

Is that shot colorized?

OTOH, I did have a student who was related to Groucho....

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4 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Your anecdote is not perspective broadening as much as it is seemingly intentionally a negative swipe at Christians and Christian religion.

The fact that it was Christian is somewhat unimportant (to me).

It was more about encountering evidence of the rudeness of humanity in a natural spot.

I understand how my perception of "human rudeness" is/was different than others.  But... that was my point.  MY perception of human rudeness IS different from other peoples'.  We all view nature and humanity depending on how and where and when we were raised.

I got to the top of the mountain, saw a chapel, and thought to myself, "I wonder how many peasants died carrying rocks up here... Ugh!"

I also thought to myself, "Wow, when people put their minds to something, they can achieve something magnificent."

I was able to look past the myriad sins of the Church and enjoy the sight, but I couldn't help my initial reaction.  I know too much about the history of the church not to have a negative reaction to medieval Christianity.

The issue of Christianity seems (to me) to have become more important in this discussion when people were aghast that I could look at a Christian chapel as anything other than "sacred".  It's just a building if you're not Christian.

 

As for my relation to Larry... I'll never know because that branch of my family was dispersed and murdered in the old country.  I'm not closely related, in any case.

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3 hours ago, l33tplaya said:

Thanks for sharing; I didn't know that about "porcupine."  lulz

Is that shot colorized?

OTOH, I did have a student who was related to Groucho....

The credits for it say "colorized", but don't explain the circumstances. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LFine1936_color.jpg

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4 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

The fact that it was Christian is somewhat unimportant (to me).

It was more about encountering evidence of the rudeness of humanity in a natural spot.

I understand how my perception of "human rudeness" is/was different than others.  But... that was my point.  MY perception of human rudeness IS different from other peoples'.  We all view nature and humanity depending on how and where and when we were raised.

I got to the top of the mountain, saw a chapel, and thought to myself, "I wonder how many peasants died carrying rocks up here... Ugh!"

I also thought to myself, "Wow, when people put their minds to something, they can achieve something magnificent."

I was able to look past the myriad sins of the Church and enjoy the sight, but I couldn't help my initial reaction.  I know too much about the history of the church not to have a negative reaction to medieval Christianity.

The issue of Christianity seems (to me) to have become more important in this discussion when people were aghast that I could look at a Christian chapel as anything other than "sacred".  It's just a building if you're not Christian.

 

As for my relation to Larry... I'll never know because that branch of my family was dispersed and murdered in the old country.  I'm not closely related, in any case.

"It's just a building if you're not Christian."

well i think this statement sums up the "issue" in that it lacks a certain sensitivity or regard to what others belief systems may be.

Yes,to me as well it is just another building, however I like to refrain from feeling a need to point that out to others who do feel it is more than a building.

But none the less, it's really not pertinent to the subject of the conversation of the original post unless one factors in my earlier statements about how people have grown more uncouth. 

It is absolutely your right to dislike any and or all religion if you want to, at least for awhile longer, look on the bright side of life, the new inquisitions are at least a few years off. 

Well, you know what they say down in the South all the time, "musta been God's will" 

 

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53 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

well i think this statement sums up the "issue" in that it lacks a certain sensitivity or regard to what others belief systems may be.

Yes,to me as well it is just another building, however I like to refrain from feeling a need to point that out to others who do feel it is more than a building.

But none the less, it's really not pertinent to the subject of the conversation of the original post unless one factors in my earlier statements about how people have grown more uncouth. 

It is absolutely your right to dislike any and or all religion if you want to, at least for awhile longer, look on the bright side of life, the new inquisitions are at least a few years off. 

You think the Christian point of view needs more acknowledgement and defense?  Do you really live in the south?

All I did was tell my story that I really thought paralleled the story I had just read.  I mean, we were both annoyed at the end of Alpine hikes!  That is, literally, the exact same story.

 

I like that, shortly after my mentioning my family being murdered in the old country, you can make a joke about the Inquisition while lecturing me on sensitivity and uncouthness.  That's a laugh a minute right there.  Do you know any pogrom jokes?

 

But seriously, folks.  I love religion.  I am a student of theology.  I have read a ton of Jewish stuff, but also a fair amount of Christian literature.  I've read the Christian bible, St. Augustine, some Thomas Aquinas, a good bit of C.S. Lewis, and Benedict XVI's Introduction to Christianity.  When I was younger, I had a religious experience at summer camp.  I know some Jews and Christians who I would describe at saintly.  I will defend religion until the cows come home when I come across someone who demeans religion and religious people.  I perform and enjoy performing in beautiful churches all the time.  I have a church gig today and I have a church gig tomorrow.

But, also, I grew up a Jew in the American south.  Everywhere I've been in the world, except Israel and China, Christian hegemony is the rule.  And I'm thankful.  Because Christians walk around without even realizing how dominant their religion is in world culture.  The slightest offense, and they're horrified, because who would dare offend a Christian?

Anyway, that's my experience.  And that's what feels like happened here.  As far as I can see, I haven't said anything aggressive or crazy here.  I haven't attacked anyone personally (except once after I was called a name, I retorted).

PS- the idea that people are "more uncouth" now than in the past is absolutely hilarious.  Ask a black person or a Jewish person about discrimination in polite society now vs. "then".  Hah!  Meanwhile, you're complaining about me telling someone else about how I felt mildly annoyed at the end of a hike.  Gosh, I'm so uncouth.

 

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What is wrong with the south? 

And what spots on the big blue/green earth are unnatural enough that you're ok with churches there? Why is it that you get to make rules? 

It's ok for you to have your own opinion, just like Martin and his junk culture opinion of technology, but you're just going to be a whole lot of offended if you don't like churches built in "natural" places, or don't like the south, because there is lots of both.

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10 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

You think the Christian point of view needs more acknowledgement and defense?  Do you really live in the south?

Oye vey, a religious "discussion" the kind no one "wins"...I didn't know you could win discussions he said? 

No I don't live in the South, never said I did, I do know people from there and have spent time there, and at least in South Carolina "musta been God's will"  can be heard 10 times a day...And for what it's worth I don't think any religion needs "defense" , but again that statement has a anti Christian tone to it and it's pretty clear you're not fond of the religion

All I did was tell my story that I really thought paralleled the story I had just read.  I mean, we were both annoyed at the end of Alpine hikes!  That is, literally, the exact same story.

I like that, shortly after my mentioning my family being murdered in the old country, you can make a joke about the Inquisition while lecturing me on sensitivity and uncouthness.  That's a laugh a minute right there.  Do you know any pogrom jokes?

For what it's worth, as perhaps you do not remember our not so memorable forays in the past, I AM JEWISH...furthermore I assume we have both a generational gap in our humor Rolodex's as well as a difference in temperament as that was a "two fer'" * reference related to Violdamores suggestion that you "lighten up"  

AND further,furthermore I'm sorry but as a Jewish person who had plenty of relatives who died in summer camp also, I find it somewhat tasteless when Jewish people use the "Holocaust card" to evoke some type of need for being treated "special" . I'm sorry but I had far too many in depth discussions with family survivors before they died, and I guess my family is one of the ones that is not going to tow the line and stick with the official story, because it's not the truth based on what I have been told by people who lived through it.

But seriously, folks.  I love religion.  I am a student of theology.  I have read a ton of Jewish stuff, but also a fair amount of Christian literature.  I've read the Christian bible, St. Augustine, some Thomas Aquinas, a good bit of C.S. Lewis, and Benedict XVI's Introduction to Christianity.  When I was younger, I had a religious experience at summer camp.  I know some Jews and Christians who I would describe at saintly.  I will defend religion until the cows come home when I come across someone who demeans religion and religious people.  I perform and enjoy performing in beautiful churches all the time.  I have a church gig today and I have a church gig tomorrow.

Well, don't be late or God will strike you down.

But, also, I grew up a Jew in the American south.  Everywhere I've been in the world, except Israel and China, Christian hegemony is the rule.  And I'm thankful.  Because Christians walk around without even realizing how dominant their religion is in world culture.  The slightest offense, and they're horrified, because who would dare offend a Christian?

"I grew up a Jew in the American South"  that sounds like the title of a Mel Brooks movie , somewhat ironically, I was born a poor black child :rolleyes:

Anyway, that's my experience.  And that's what feels like happened here.  As far as I can see, I haven't said anything aggressive or crazy here.  I haven't attacked anyone personally (except once after I was called a name, I retorted).

YOU MADE FUN OF JESUS!!!! :lol: ,just kidding, I guess it's just if it was me I'd make "my" secret disdain for Christians , more secret.

PS- the idea that people are "more uncouth" now than in the past is absolutely hilarious.  Ask a black person or a Jewish person about discrimination in polite society now vs. "then".  Hah!  Meanwhile, you're complaining about me telling someone else about how I felt mildly annoyed at the end of a hike.  Gosh, I'm so uncouth.

Well honestly the uncouth part wasn't in relation to the experience then as it was related to your somewhat hard to hide dislike or mild negative bias towards Christian religion as posted on the board now. I suppose I would ask if it was a Jewish Temple, would it be sacred to you? sacred yet still annoying? what if it had a snack bar? or a 7-11? I'd prefer a Shindig with some Shishkas and some Shaylas but I digress.

Well, I'm sure you've heard of the book "Black like me" well the name of this book is "Jew like you" and in the words of the great and reverent Rodney King , I'd implore us to all "just get along"  But I would encourage you to heed VDA's advice 

But from one Jew, to another to another, remember, the inquisition is here and it's here to stay... as I'm sure you know, we're the chosen, "chosen for what" , that's what I always say.

 

*but again remember 

 

 

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Well this has all gone a bit nuclear ...

I was really just advocating good manners ie. respect for other peoples' sacred spaces, whether a mountaintop, a chapel, a synagogue, or an Anne Sophie Mutter concert.

 

 

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