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Wadi

Cello by Giuseppe Fiorini?

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This cello was played for decades by a professional symphony orchestra cellist, and the sound is marvellous for sure. It is allegedly by Giuseppe Fiorini (Rieger & Fiorini), but I am wondering if that could actually be true as they only made a handful of cellos. Happy to hear if anyone here could help in ruling that out or not. For what it’s worth, there’s no label inside.

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Fiorini was the son in law of Rieger. There are instruments with an A.Rieger brand below the button, which are sometimes Mittenwald Verleger, sometimes even Vogtland work, and in different qualities.

We discussed Fiorini at several occasions, many informations were given for instance here, so one can possibly work out if the cello could have been made by him:

 

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There was a Fiorini cello that sold at Tarisio in February from $200K (before commission fees.) The cello was in immaculate condition and came with full papers and documentation. I managed to snap screen shots photo's so if you're interested private message me.

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9 hours ago, Blank face said:

Maybe it's this one?https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=86222

Made in 1907 it would be made 11 years after Rieger's death

I think that the only way to find out is to show it to one of the South German experts in person.

Yes... this is the one. I forgot that Tarisio themselves would probably keep an archive on it (especially since it's a recent sale of their's) :D I think this one would be a very good reference point since it was made in Munich.

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Many thanks for the links and references to previous posts. There’s no locating pins or Rieger’s or Fiorini’s brands on this cello but I can’t see them in the Tarisio cello photos either. (There’s also no ebay connection here, very untypical for a Fiorini, I guess.) The long time player of this cello passed away some time ago. His colleague says that he never allowed anyone in the orchestra to touch this cello, claiming it was by Fiorini. Wonderful story, of course. The story doesn’t say how he knew it was by Fiorini. There’s no paperwork. 

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20 hours ago, Wadi said:

Many thanks for the links and references to previous posts. There’s no locating pins or Rieger’s or Fiorini’s brands on this cello but I can’t see them in the Tarisio cello photos either. (There’s also no ebay connection here, very untypical for a Fiorini, I guess.) The long time player of this cello passed away some time ago. His colleague says that he never allowed anyone in the orchestra to touch this cello, claiming it was by Fiorini. Wonderful story, of course. The story doesn’t say how he knew it was by Fiorini. There’s no paperwork. 

Yeah... you have to be careful. Just because the player believes the cello to be Fiorini does not mean it is. In fact, recently there was a cello sold at T2 (the division of Tarisio that sells instruments that in my opinion are really trashed up) and there was a cello that marketed as Francesco Rugeri and was played by the 1st chair of the Boston Phil back in the late 1800's to 1900's. The cert back then said it was a Francesco Rugeri, but then a cert done later in the said it was "Follower of Rugeri". Anyways, long story short I was going to considered bidding on this cello, but I decided to have a dendro done (out of my own pocket) and what they found was that the cello was a French cello from about 1730, but it was not Rugeri because he was dead by then. So can you imagine ... this Boston Phil guy for his entire life played on the cello thinking it was a Rugeri, but it turns out it was not. How crazy and sad is that! Granted ... I don't think dendro was available back in 1930, but still ...:wacko:

Again, I'm not expert, but at a minimum I would do a dendro. These days you just need a high resolution picture and then you can send it to guy doing the dendro. I used Peter Radcliff. Also, I don't know if you're able, but maybe you can say you'll buy the cello contingent that you can get it certified that it's Rugeri. These are my thoughts! Good luck! 

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Thanks, for the tip! I had no idea it can actually be done from just the photos. Would definitely be interesting.

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9 hours ago, Wadi said:

Thanks, for the tip! I had no idea it can actually be done from just the photos. Would definitely be interesting.

Yes, the technology is so good now that so long as the photo has high enough resolution they can run the dendro. There is no need to physically bring in the instrument. If your serious it’s worth it to invest $300 USD.

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Re. the chapter Fiorini

 

Fiorini become the son in law of the Munich violin maker Andreas Rieger in 1889, upon which the Firm was re-named Rieger & Fiorini. The Firm was re-named once more to Giuseppi Fiorini in the middle of 1899. This was the leading violin shop in Munich of the time, so much so that, for instance Albert Phillips Hill, the brother in law of Arthur Frederick Hill, and father of Desmond Hill went to work there for two and a half years as a young man to learn the business.

 

Fiorini was a leading light in the violin dealing/restoring of the time and was one of the founders and board members of the German violin making assn. Fiorini was a respected connoisseur of antique violins and chairman of the “Sachverständigen” (experts) commission, basically the top instance of the time should the origin of an old violin be in doubt, a sort of pre WWI Charles Beare. Apparently he also had a large collection of old violin labels, which supposedly is now in the Shrine to Music Museum in Vermilion South Dakota (perhaps an American Mner would like to check that out)

 

Lütgendorff writes that he made all parts of his violins himself, although, should one know how Lütgendorff worked, he wrote to the (then) contemporary makers and asked, and published whatever marketing blurb he got back (Gmünder in America is a particularly crass example).

 

Anyone who runs a large city dealership, with such acquired expertise about old violins, will know how little time (if any) remains for making new violins ones self, so if Vannes writes that he made 500 instruments, I can only think to myself “When?”

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Took the cello to a luthier and the front is now off, which revealed these oval Roth stamps. Seems to me that Fiorini is getting a bit farther away into the horizon... Did Roth stamp cellos they made? Or would they have stamped a repair job this way?

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It Is almost certainly unrelated to this particular factory, but at the VSA convention I was able to buy a “Fiorini” cello. I passed it on one of my students( at my cost, of course) It’s a wonderful cello, the dealer cost was only $1800 but I had to pay considerably more than that because I’m not a dealer. I just am wondering whether it came from that same factory in Germany, or the name has been farmed out to some other company.

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36 minutes ago, Wadi said:

Took the cello to a luthier and the front is now off, which revealed these oval Roth stamps. Seems to me that Fiorini is getting a bit farther away into the horizon... Did Roth stamp cellos they made? Or would they have stamped a repair job this way?

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The stamps are a bit smudged, so a good squint is the order of the day. Lütgendorf records a Gustav Roth, who was born in Markneukirchen on 29th May 1852 and was a pupil of Bausch, who started his own business in 1870, which he incorporated in September 1900 when his son became business partner. The stamp reads “Streich-Instrumenten Fabrikanten, Markneukirchen in SA(Saxon)” (Strings Instrument Manufacturers). Since the top is off, it would be instructive to see pictures of the blocks and linings

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31 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The stamps are a bit smudged, so a good squint is the order of the day. Lütgendorf records a Gustav Roth, who was born in Markneukirchen on 29th May 1852 and was a pupil of Bausch, who started his own business in 1870, which he incorporated in September 1900 when his son became business partner. The stamp reads “Streich-Instrumenten Fabrikanten, Markneukirchen in SA(Saxon)” (Strings Instrument Manufacturers). Since the top is off, it would be instructive to see pictures of the blocks and linings

Very interesting, many thanks for this. Here’s more photos. 

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

it would seem that you have a very pretty Markneukirchen Cello

All roads lead to Markneukirchen :), anyway, thanks for the compliment!

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13 hours ago, Wadi said:

All roads lead to Markneukirchen 

This doesn't exclude rigorously that the cello was once sold by the Rieger and Fiorini shop, as I explained above

On 9/24/2019 at 9:30 PM, Blank face said:

Fiorini was the son in law of Rieger. There are instruments with an A.Rieger brand below the button, which are sometimes Mittenwald Verleger, sometimes even Vogtland work, and in different qualities.

But without a sort of Rieger brand or shop label this remins speculative.

We missed obviously to ask the usual questions about the MittenwaldMarkneukirchen features, f.i. corner blocks, rib joints or depth of the scroll fluting.

Roth was a wide spread family of makers in Markneukirchen and surrounding, but Gustav Adolf was the father of the more reknown Ernst Heinrich Roth.

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20 minutes ago, Blank face said:

This doesn't exclude rigorously that the cello was once sold by the Rieger and Fiorini shop, as I explained above

But without a sort of Rieger brand or shop label this remins speculative.

We missed obviously to ask the usual questions about the MittenwaldMarkneukirchen features, f.i. corner blocks, rib joints or depth of the scroll fluting.

Roth was a wide spread family of makers in Markneukirchen and surrounding, but Gustav Adolf was the father of the more reknown Ernst Heinrich Roth.

All true, never the less I think one may consider the Cello setteled, a Gustav Roth & Co, Markneukirchen in the time ca. shortly after 1900

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17 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

All true, never the less I think one may consider the Cello setteled, a Gustav Roth & Co, Markneukirchen in the time ca. shortly after 1900

Just thought that the tell tale "Purchased at the Rieger shop, therefore a Fiorini" could be caused by the circumstance that Rieger bought it from the Markneukirchen trade, with a hidden stamp only.

At which place exactly are the stamps?

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8 hours ago, Blank face said:

Just thought that the tell tale "Purchased at the Rieger shop, therefore a Fiorini" could be caused by the circumstance that Rieger bought it from the Markneukirchen trade, with a hidden stamp only.

At which place exactly are the stamps?

Looks like the neck block.

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30 minutes ago, Three13 said:

Looks like the neck block.

Sometimes one is unable to get things into the right perspective:blink:. Of course you're right, I was perplexed by the seemingly rounded upper edge.

The more it makes me wonder why nobody took a look through the buttom hole and recognized the stamps, finishing the story about Fiorini.

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7 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Sometimes one is unable to get things into the right perspective:blink:. Of course you're right, I was perplexed by the seemingly rounded upper edge.

The more it makes me wonder why nobody took a look through the buttom hole and recognized the stamps, finishing the story about Fiorini.

Maybe they did and that’s why this cellist didn’t want anyone (else)going near his instrument ;)

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