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millant

No linings on ribs

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Dear friends, 

I have recently met an old anonimous violin with no linings on ribs when meeting back plate. I have read some interesting topics about here at Maestronet and I'm posting a couple pictures if someone wants to comment. 

Thanks!

IMG_20190915_163430.jpg

IMG_20190915_214359.jpg

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How violins are built can be a starting point for determining where or in what region it originated, and to some limited extent the quality. No upper corner blocks can indicate the method used in construction, but is no indication of the violin being "decent" or not. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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On 9/17/2019 at 8:46 PM, luthier said:

How violins are built can be a starting point for determining where or in what region it originated, and to some limited extent the quality. No upper corner blocks can indicate the method used in construction, but is no indication of the violin being "decent" or not. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

How beautiful an instrument looks to the beholder doesn't necessarily correlate with quality workmanship in construction. All the parts used in a conventional Italian model instrument serve a purpose.

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On 9/16/2019 at 5:36 PM, millant said:

Dear friends, 

I have recently met an old anonimous violin with no linings on ribs when meeting back plate. I have read some interesting topics about here at Maestronet and I'm posting a couple pictures if someone wants to comment. 

Thanks!

 

 

From the photos, I can't quite tell what''s going on there. Is there some glued-in material like parchment of linen bridging the rib-plate joint? If so, it could be very strong, but might not do well with top or back removals and replacements.

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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 11:36 PM, millant said:

Dear friends, 

I have recently met an old anonimous violin with no linings on ribs when meeting back plate. I have read some interesting topics about here at Maestronet and I'm posting a couple pictures if someone wants to comment. 

Thanks!

IMG_20190915_163430.jpg

IMG_20190915_214359.jpg

If you would like to post pictures of the rest of the violin, you might get the odd sensible comment

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6 hours ago, Bill Yacey said:

How beautiful an instrument looks to the beholder doesn't necessarily correlate with quality workmanship in construction. All the parts used in a conventional Italian model instrument serve a purpose.

I was referring to the tonal beauty.

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On 9/16/2019 at 11:55 PM, deans said:

Some old French violins lack linings. But I'm sure there are others.

Hi Deans,

I know there are French, English, Polish... usually early violins lacking linings. 

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On 9/17/2019 at 12:03 AM, Evan Smith said:

Some have  the ribs "let" into the back.

Hi Evan,

I think this is not the case since I can not see any evidence from outside...

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On 9/18/2019 at 4:46 AM, luthier said:

How violins are built can be a starting point for determining where or in what region it originated, and to some limited extent the quality. No upper corner blocks can indicate the method used in construction, but is no indication of the violin being "decent" or not. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Hi Luthier,

Yes I agree and it was my main purpose to know about this particular violin from the point of view of inner construction method. This particular is a definitely decent violin and seems to be very old.

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22 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If you would like to post pictures of the rest of the violin, you might get the odd sensible comment

Yes Jacob, here you have the pictures of the violin. I was trying to get some opinions from inner pictures only (I read your topic about linings and ribs) but I suppose some pictures of the rest of the violin will help...

IMG_20190713_164623.JPG

IMG_20190713_164355.JPG

IMG_20190711_140050.JPG

IMG_20190713_164447.JPG

RIMG0169.JPG

RIMG0173.JPG

RIMG0174.JPG

RIMG0181.JPG

RIMG0186.JPG

RIMG0188.JPG

RIMG0189.JPG

IMG_20190713_164314.JPG

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Thank-you for the pictures. I was expecting some cheap early 19thC Salzkammergut violin from your (non)lining picture, but that isn't. A very nice fiddle. Will have to think long and hard what that could be.

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A photo of the scroll would be interesting, too, no matter wether original or not, also the LOB. With ff being so down low I would expect a rather short body? Not that I'm having any significant idea now, except that some aspects are reminding of 17th century English like Pamphillon.http://hebberts.com/180901

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Thank-you for the pictures. I was expecting some cheap early 19thC Salzkammergut violin from your (non)lining picture, but that isn't. A very nice fiddle. Will have to think long and hard what that could be.

Thanks Jacob. It's a very special violin (I think) indeed. A good friend of mine told me about it and showed to me. Atribution will not be easy but sound and playability are wonderful and suit me very good. Just 347 mm back length.

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2 hours ago, Blank face said:

A photo of the scroll would be interesting, too, no matter wether original or not, also the LOB. With ff being so down low I would expect a rather short body? Not that I'm having any significant idea now, except that some aspects are reminding of 17th century English like Pamphillon.http://hebberts.com/180901

Thanks Blank,

Yes I know about Hebbert's Pamphillon. Hebberts himself gave me his honest general feeling about this violin I posted. Many people thinks inmediately about Antonio Mariani and its circle so I read a lot about this family, missatributions, etc.

Back length is just 347 mm.

IMG_20190713_164520.jpg

IMG_20190713_164533.jpg

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Thanks, so we can assume that this scroll isn't original. The short body makes it more interesting. Furthermore I'm assuming that Ben Hebbert's opinion was "private" but that he didn't think it was from the same maker like his instrument. Maybe someone like Peter Biddulph would be the next person to ask?

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14 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Thanks, so we can assume that this scroll isn't original. The short body makes it more interesting. Furthermore I'm assuming that Ben Hebbert's opinion was "private" but that he didn't think it was from the same maker like his instrument. Maybe someone like Peter Biddulph would be the next person to ask?

Yes Blank, I forgot to say scroll is not original and not crafted. I think Hebberts will not mind if I share here that his opinion was mainly towards being really careful about anything atributed to Mariani since this maker comes to mind very usually when rare old violins difficult to attribute to a well known maker appear. I think he said "It could be nothing, but old and interesting". I really like this honest realistic view. Would be great to know what Biddulph thinks.

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Perhaps it's worth looking at dendro to get something of a starting point - it certainly could eliminate a few false positives. 

The soundholes/varnish remind me of a Thomas Urquhart I remember seeing, but I imagine that Mr. Hebbert would have identified it as that immediately, if it were the case.

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14 hours ago, Three13 said:

Perhaps it's worth looking at dendro to get something of a starting point - it certainly could eliminate a few false positives. 

The soundholes/varnish remind me of a Thomas Urquhart I remember seeing, but I imagine that Mr. Hebbert would have identified it as that immediately, if it were the case.

Three13,

Thanks for your comments. I'm in fact waiting for the results of dendro analysis (Hebberts recommended too). 

I have read about Unquhart and others early english makers. Quite interesting. There's always room for learning ;)

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Without wanting to get into an argument, I think your violin is one of those where you will get a different assessment, depending on where you ask. I understand that English appraisers would be inclined to think of early English If you asked around in Vienna (where nobody has heard of Urquhard), people would start their thoughts in the18th.C Salzburg region, particularly on account of the archaic f holes (but also the lack of linings). That is a school where expertize is impossible, because, although plenty are recorded in church books etc., there are almost none with original labels. I have a customer with a similar instrument, but he is convinced that he has a Gagliano, so that is a total lost cause. I posted pictures of a very early one in my Stainer’s birthday thread  https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/343116-jacob-stainers-birthday/&do=findComment&comment=851749

but the Steiger is surely a century to early. Dendrocronology is (once again) a total waste of money, because the age is hardly a matter of dispute, rather what it is.

It would be interesting to know if one sees remnants of your fiddle having earlier had a through neck or not, although this wouldn’t solve this question since through necks were typical both in the Salzburg region as in England

 

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On 9/19/2019 at 11:23 AM, David Burgess said:

From the photos, I can't quite tell what''s going on there. Is there some glued-in material like parchment of linen bridging the rib-plate joint? If so, it could be very strong, but might not do well with top or back removals and replacements.

It looks, to me, like a heavy "bead" of some type of glue was laid around that joint, & the whitish lines may have resulted from it's drying.

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18 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Without wanting to get into an argument, I think your violin is one of those where you will get a different assessment, depending on where you ask. I understand that English appraisers would be inclined to think of early English If you asked around in Vienna (where nobody has heard of Urquhard), people would start their thoughts in the18th.C Salzburg region, particularly on account of the archaic f holes (but also the lack of linings). That is a school where expertize is impossible, because, although plenty are recorded in church books etc., there are almost none with original labels. I have a customer with a similar instrument, but he is convinced that he has a Gagliano, so that is a total lost cause. I posted pictures of a very early one in my Stainer’s birthday thread  https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/343116-jacob-stainers-birthday/&do=findComment&comment=851749

but the Steiger is surely a century to early. Dendrocronology is (once again) a total waste of money, because the age is hardly a matter of dispute, rather what it is.

It would be interesting to know if one sees remnants of your fiddle having earlier had a through neck or not, although this wouldn’t solve this question since through necks were typical both in the Salzburg region as in England

 

Many thanks for your comments Jacob, and the link to Stainer topic (the violin pictures are amazing) I will try to get some interesting? pictures from inside the violin too and around the neck like if someone can see more things that brings clues about what is it. I´m really more interested on the method of construction and characteristics than on who the maker was a I know this point will be really difficult to know... And if the characteristics led me to a school, circle, country or maker, I will happy of course.

I think dendro will be interesting (with all reservatios about it) in order to eliminate some possibilities (for example if it gives an c. 1800 date) since two o three people I showed the this violin inmediately thought c.1700... and Italian. But I´m cautious in general about the dendro analysis.

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