JC & Ava Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 Hi all, this is my first post. I just wanted to get your thoughts of the authenticity of this violin. Is it a Perry, Wilkinson, or workshop instrument? The violin shows its age both inside and out, and I do believe the label to be authentic, aside from someone trying to scribe ‘17’ over ‘18’. I have read there are German copies of Perry violins. The repair work seems to have been done centuries ago, lending credit to the repair inscription of 1841. Purfling lines are painted on, but I’ve read that is a characteristic of some Perry violins. Also, any general suggestions on repair of the neck would be appreciated as well. Thank you!
Conor Russell Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 Yes, this is a Perry and Wilkinson. They had others making for them, either in the shop or as out workers. It's hard to say who made what, without a signature hidden somewhere, which is very rare. They made various grades of violin, some with purfling, some without. I'd make a button and put the neck back in. You'll have to join in the new wood without the luxury of real purfling. With an original setup they're perfectly playable. Lots of them seem to come in this sort of condition. Unfortunately good repairers were thin on the ground in years gone by.
nathan slobodkin Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 Conor, I have only seen a few Perry's and some time ago. Was this BOB? Were all of them? I am remembering somewhat nicer violins with conventional neck joints. How about the way that the eye of the scroll joins the volute at the 6 o'clock position? Is that typical of these fiddles? Thanks
JC & Ava Posted September 6, 2019 Author Report Posted September 6, 2019 1 minute ago, nathan slobodkin said: Conor, I have only seen a few Perry's and some time ago. Was this BOB? Were all of them? I am remembering somewhat nicer violins with conventional neck joints. How about the way that the eye of the scroll joins the volute at the 6 o'clock position? Is that typical of these fiddles? Thanks Hi Nathan, I do believe the neck joint is an attempted repair, and not original to the violin.
jacobsaunders Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 Since Perry & Wilkinson isn’t my department either, I will join in your questioning of Conor. The blocks, if anything, suggest the old French method, which was a sub-division of BOB (to use Mn diction). Cheaper English fiddles of the time have more higledy-pigldy corner blocks. Were there Franco-Irish conections? (apart from Panormo)
Three13 Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said: Since Perry & Wilkinson isn’t my department either, I will join in your questioning of Conor. The blocks, if anything, suggest the old French method, which was a sub-division of BOB (to use Mn diction). Cheaper English fiddles of the time have more higledy-pigldy corner blocks. Were there Franco-Irish conections? (apart from Panormo) I think that i’d Read somewhere that he was related to Claude Pierray, but I don’t recall any sort of citation that went along with that claim...
Conor Russell Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 I'm up to my neck at the moment, but I'll try to show a few more examples and tell you as much as I know in a few days. I'm not sure if the French connection is very real, and I've always thought that the Dublin makers were more related to London than anywhere else. The workshop produced a very wide variety over it's 45 or so years. From pretty crude to exceptionally fine. In fact I wonder were there occasional visitors who just made a few and then went off again. It must be remembered that Dublin had a vice regal court and a large wealthy population until the act of union in 1800, and a thriving music scene for years after that, so a decent shop would have done well, and might well have attracted journeymen. Nathan, to my knowledge the necks were always set with a single nail, with a small overstand and a gently wedged ebony fingerboard. The stop lengths are almost invariably a quarter of an inch or so short, like some English fiddles. I have a couple of fine ones with a full stop, and I wonder who made them! Often, when someone turns up with a Perry, it turns out to be a German trade fiddle with a brand beneath the button. You see the same fiddles branded Duke. But the Perry brand is very distinct, the OP's is correct, and there's usually a number on the button itself.
duane88 Posted September 6, 2019 Report Posted September 6, 2019 Here's what is left of one of the 3 that I see. Unmistakable outline and model. Of the other two, one is in great condition, and the third has been purfled after the fact. You wouldn't know unless you look carefully in the corners and see that the inlaid purfling didn't completely follow the painted lines in the corners!
JC & Ava Posted September 9, 2019 Author Report Posted September 9, 2019 Thank you all for your wonderful help, and what a treat to have found such a valuable resource.
Michael Appleman Posted September 9, 2019 Report Posted September 9, 2019 I believe I read somewhere that Perry was actually a descendant of a Pierray family member...hence a connection with old French techniques. Could be an apocryphal story, though, so I'll look it up and share if I find a reliable source.
jandepora Posted September 9, 2019 Report Posted September 9, 2019 53 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said: I believe I read somewhere that Perry was actually a descendant of a Pierray family member...hence a connection with old French techniques. Could be an apocryphal story, though, so I'll look it up and share if I find a reliable source. Here? https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=1616
jacobsaunders Posted September 9, 2019 Report Posted September 9, 2019 1 hour ago, jandepora said: Here? https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=1616 sadly merely a Tarisian wet dream without the slightest evidence
Three13 Posted September 9, 2019 Report Posted September 9, 2019 1 minute ago, jacobsaunders said: sadly merely a Tarisian wet dream without the slightest evidence I'm filing "Tarisian wet dream" away for future use...
Blank face Posted September 10, 2019 Report Posted September 10, 2019 He could be also related to the Perr family from Goisern. Maybe an early Austrian-Franko-Irish cooperation?
Amadi Posted September 10, 2019 Report Posted September 10, 2019 After seeing the comment about short body stop, I am posting this violin which may be Perry Wilkinson. The body stop is 189 mm with 360 mm size back.
jacobsaunders Posted September 10, 2019 Report Posted September 10, 2019 What makes you think that it "may" be Perry & Wilkinson?
Amadi Posted September 10, 2019 Report Posted September 10, 2019 Because it has been suggested by someone with a good reputation in the violin world but not confirmed by that person. Hence the 'may'. What do you think it is then?
jacobsaunders Posted September 11, 2019 Report Posted September 11, 2019 First of all, for a Perry & Wilkinson, I would expect a stamp beneath the button
Shelbow Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 There is some interesting information regarding the history / possible French connection on this forum post https://www.fiddleforum.com/fiddleforum/index.php?topic=31363.0 Some interesting sources are cited, including deeds and other documents. I have the reprinted 1997 copy of William Henley's 1973 'Universal dictionary of Violin & Bow Makers' in front of me and that seems to support the link to Claude Pierray, however I have only recently become interested in these instruments and I have not had time to investigate if there are any more modern sources/evidence/theories on the relationship.
martin swan Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 There's quite a lot of modern research on the Perry family which has found no link with the Pierray family of makers in France - I think this is just a whimsical idea which got regurgitated by Henley and other plagiarists. There may be a distant genealogical link but as Blank Face says, the name is just as likely to have come from Perr in Austria, or Perez in Spain or Pereira in Portugal. Or none of these ...
Shelbow Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, martin swan said: There's quite a lot of modern research on the Perry family which has found no link with the Pierray family of makers in France - I think this is just a whimsical idea which got regurgitated by Henley and other plagiarists. There may be a distant genealogical link but it's irrelevant to any discussion of the Perry family's style of making. Conor Russell who posts here is the person to ask about Perry ... Hi Martin, Very good to know thanks for the information. If anyone has links to any modern research I would be interested to read it. I should have a check over at JSTOR and see if there is anything on there.
Blank face Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 Factually both model and scroll of the OP resembles a lot of Salzkammergut features in my eyes, not to mention the painted purfling. So this was a half-serious statement. But to tell anything as proven by such features or vague name similarities seems to be wild and fancy speculation. See you all next year!
Conor Russell Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 I meant to find some good examples of the Perry shop for this thread, but never had time. I'll take the time to do so soon. Happy new year all. Conor
Shelbow Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 30 minutes ago, Conor Russell said: I meant to find some good examples of the Perry shop for this thread, but never had time. I'll take the time to do so soon. Happy new year all. Conor I'd be very interested to see if there are any photos of the German fake Perry instruments. I think I saw one on this forum in another old thread but curious to see if there are any others.
Tom O Posted December 31, 2019 Report Posted December 31, 2019 I've had two Perrys in my shop, one with painted purfling and one with the real thing. The purfled Perry (great band name) came in pieces and I reglued (all it needed) and set up. I'm no expert, but OP's innards (another band name) look right to me. Both Perrys sounded very sweet but not spectacularly loud. The one with the painted purfling had a nice repair of some odd back damage--Mr. Huthmaker in Atlanta thought someone had been "El Kabonged" with it, to account for the impact damage.
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