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Posted

Hi all, this is my first post.  I just wanted to get your thoughts of the authenticity of this violin.  Is it a Perry, Wilkinson, or workshop instrument? The violin shows its age both inside and out, and I do believe the label to be authentic, aside from someone trying to scribe ‘17’ over ‘18’.  I have read there are German copies of Perry violins.  The repair work seems to have been done centuries ago, lending credit to the repair inscription of 1841.  Purfling lines are painted on, but I’ve read that is a characteristic of some Perry violins.   Also, any general suggestions on repair of the neck would be appreciated as well. Thank you!

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Posted

Yes, this is a Perry and Wilkinson.  They had others making  for them, either in the shop or as out workers. It's  hard to say who made what, without a signature  hidden somewhere, which is very  rare. They made various  grades of violin, some with purfling, some without.

I'd make a button  and put the neck back in. You'll have to join in the new wood without the luxury  of  real purfling. With an original  setup they're perfectly playable.

Lots of  them  seem to come in this sort of condition. Unfortunately  good repairers were thin on the ground in years gone by.

Posted

Conor, 

I have only seen a few Perry's and some time ago. Was this BOB? Were all of them? I am remembering  somewhat nicer violins with conventional neck joints. How about the way that the eye of the scroll joins the volute at the 6 o'clock position? Is that typical of these fiddles?

Thanks  

Posted
1 minute ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Conor, 

I have only seen a few Perry's and some time ago. Was this BOB? Were all of them? I am remembering  somewhat nicer violins with conventional neck joints. How about the way that the eye of the scroll joins the volute at the 6 o'clock position? Is that typical of these fiddles?

Thanks  

Hi Nathan, I do believe the neck joint is an attempted repair, and not original to the violin. 

Posted

Since Perry & Wilkinson isn’t my department either, I will join in your questioning of Conor. The blocks, if anything, suggest the old French method, which was a sub-division of BOB (to use Mn diction). Cheaper English fiddles of the time have more higledy-pigldy corner blocks. Were there Franco-Irish conections? (apart from Panormo)

Posted
1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Since Perry & Wilkinson isn’t my department either, I will join in your questioning of Conor. The blocks, if anything, suggest the old French method, which was a sub-division of BOB (to use Mn diction). Cheaper English fiddles of the time have more higledy-pigldy corner blocks. Were there Franco-Irish conections? (apart from Panormo)

 

I think that i’d Read somewhere that he was related to Claude Pierray, but I don’t recall any sort of citation that went along with that claim...

Posted

I'm up to my neck at the moment,  but I'll try to show a few more examples  and tell you as much  as  I  know in a few days. 

I'm not sure  if the French  connection  is very real, and I've always  thought  that  the Dublin  makers were more related to London  than  anywhere else.

The workshop  produced  a very wide variety over it's 45 or so years. From pretty crude to exceptionally  fine. In fact I wonder were there occasional  visitors who just made a few and then went off again. It must be remembered  that  Dublin  had a vice regal court and a large wealthy  population until  the  act of union in 1800, and a thriving  music   scene for years after that, so a decent shop would  have done well, and might well have attracted  journeymen. 

Nathan, to my knowledge the necks were always set with a single nail, with a small overstand and a  gently wedged ebony fingerboard.  The stop lengths are almost invariably  a quarter  of  an  inch  or so short, like some English  fiddles. I have a couple  of  fine ones with a full stop, and I wonder who made them!

Often, when someone  turns  up  with a Perry, it turns out to be a German  trade fiddle with a brand beneath the button. You see the same fiddles branded Duke.  But the Perry  brand is very distinct, the OP's is correct, and there's  usually  a number  on the button  itself. 

Posted

Here's what is left of one of the 3 that I see. Unmistakable outline and model. Of the other two, one is in great condition, and the third has been purfled after the fact. You wouldn't know unless you look carefully in the corners and see that the inlaid purfling didn't completely follow the painted lines in the corners!20190906_155533.thumb.jpg.3fd2f7685abab01eaf90ce08bfb1cbd4.jpg20190906_155649.thumb.jpg.68a29d8b7e548d57580d96d1e8d3140d.jpg20190906_155610.thumb.jpg.63e317536730c0f7405a7209a6d6d1b1.jpg

Posted

I believe I read somewhere that Perry was actually a descendant of a Pierray family member...hence a connection with old French techniques. Could be an apocryphal story, though, so I'll look it up and share if I find a reliable source.

Posted

Because it has been suggested by someone with a good reputation in the violin world but not confirmed by that person. Hence the 'may'.

What do you think it is then?

  • 3 months later...
Posted

There is some interesting information regarding the history / possible French connection on this forum post  https://www.fiddleforum.com/fiddleforum/index.php?topic=31363.0

Some interesting sources are cited, including deeds and other documents.

I have the reprinted 1997 copy of William Henley's 1973 'Universal dictionary of Violin & Bow Makers' in front of me and that seems to support the link to Claude Pierray, however I have only recently become interested in these instruments and I have not had time to investigate if there are any more modern sources/evidence/theories on the relationship.

 

 

 

 

Posted

There's quite a lot of modern research on the Perry family which has found no link with the Pierray family of makers in France - I think this is just a whimsical idea which got regurgitated by Henley and other plagiarists. There may be a distant genealogical link but as Blank Face says, the name is just as likely to have come from Perr in Austria, or Perez in Spain or Pereira in Portugal. Or none of these ...

Posted
7 minutes ago, martin swan said:

There's quite a lot of modern research on the Perry family which has found no link with the Pierray family of makers in France - I think this is just a whimsical idea which got regurgitated by Henley and other plagiarists. There may be a distant genealogical link but it's irrelevant to any discussion of the Perry family's style of making.

Conor Russell who posts here is the person to ask about Perry ...

Hi Martin,

Very good to know thanks for the information. If anyone has links to any modern research I would be interested to read it. I should have a check over at JSTOR  and see if there is anything on there.

 

Posted

Factually both model and scroll of the OP resembles a lot of Salzkammergut features in my eyes, not to mention the painted purfling. So this was a half-serious statement. But to tell anything as proven by such features or vague name similarities seems to be wild and fancy speculation.

See you all next year!

Posted
30 minutes ago, Conor Russell said:

I meant  to find some  good examples   of the Perry  shop for this thread, but never had time.  I'll take the time to do so soon. 

Happy new year all.

 

Conor 

I'd be very interested to see if there are any photos of the German fake Perry instruments. I think I saw one on this forum in another old thread but curious to see if there are any others. 

Posted

I've had two Perrys in my shop, one with painted purfling and one with the real thing.  The purfled Perry (great  band name) came in pieces and I reglued (all it needed) and set up.

I'm no expert, but OP's innards (another band name) look right to me.

Both Perrys sounded very sweet but not spectacularly loud. The one with the painted purfling had a nice repair of some odd back damage--Mr. Huthmaker in Atlanta thought someone had been "El Kabonged" with it, to account for the impact damage.

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