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What could this be?

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I was wondering what this old violin could be. It looks interesting and maybe someone here can recognize it. The linings go over the blocks too, never seen that, so wondering if that points to anything.

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Thanks for the great photos!  The continuous linings are a sign of outside mold construction, which, in an antique violin, usually suggests French.  Is there any label? :)

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2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Thanks for the great photos!  The continuous linings are a sign of outside mold construction, which, in an antique violin, usually suggests French.  Is there any label? :)

Does the scroll have a Delta? It looks like it to me, but it could just be wear.

Can you tell whether it was a baroque violin that was modernized? It never occurred to me to ask for signs of that kind of modification that might be visible after the work is done.

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50 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Does the scroll have a Delta? It looks like it to me, but it could just be wear.

Can you tell whether it was a baroque violin that was modernized? It never occurred to me to ask for signs of that kind of modification that might be visible after the work is done.

I cannot tell if it is a delta, or just the way the old varnish is stuck to the scroll.  The pegbox is grafted, and the pegs have been bushed, which may or may not mean anything.  I'm not going to start guessing before the heavier hitters chime in.  :)

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

I cannot tell if it is a delta, or just the way the old varnish is stuck to the scroll.  The pegbox is grafted, and the pegs have been bushed, which may or may not mean anything.  I'm not going to start guessing before the heavier hitters chime in.  :)

I saw the scroll graft too, and someone mentioned that a particular type of scroll grafting is French but I don’t know what type this is.

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Please stop to the "delta" as a reference for a particular origin, this was discussed recently. It appears to be a bit too old for and outside mould construction, though one can never know. A closer shot of the rib joints to see if they are mitred could tell more, and also if the ribs are set into a groove at the bottom.

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7 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Thanks for the great photos!  The continuous linings are a sign of outside mold construction, which, in an antique violin, usually suggests French.  Is there any label? :)

 

3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I saw the scroll graft too, and someone mentioned that a particular type of scroll grafting is French but I don’t know what type this is.

 

 

When trying to localise an antique violin using the tried and tested “box ticking” scheme, it is folly to only identify one box (through linings) to tick, since one will invariably finish with ridiculous conclusions. Other, non French places have known such linings, I remember for instance a Reber of Dusseldorf (which this fiddle defiantly isn’t) with such linings.

 

The outside mould, is a technique that I have been unable to observe pre- mid 19th C, and since this violin would seem to be late 18th C., or early 19th C. one may exclude the use of an outside mould with certainty.

 

Another common trait of clueless people thrashing around trying to work out what a violin is, is the dogged focus on subsequent repairs like neck grafts. One should look at the violin as it originally was, and not on the irrelevant subsequent alterations.

 

To the violin itself: I do not recognise it, although I would look for anything with such a curious outline to start my search, and ask the standard question, how far into the throat the scroll fluting goes.

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4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

 

 

When trying to localise an antique violin using the tried and tested “box ticking” scheme, it is folly to only identify one box (through linings) to tick, since one will invariably finish with ridiculous conclusions. Other, non French places have known such linings, I remember for instance a Reber of Dusseldorf (which this fiddle defiantly isn’t) with such linings.

 

The outside mould, is a technique that I have been unable to observe pre- mid 19th C, and since this violin would seem to be late 18th C., or early 19th C. one may exclude the use of an outside mould with certainty.

 

Another common trait of clueless people thrashing around trying to work out what a violin is, is the dogged focus on subsequent repairs like neck grafts. One should look at the violin as it originally was, and not on the irrelevant subsequent alterations.

 

To the violin itself: I do not recognise it, although I would look for anything with such a curious outline to start my search, and ask the standard question, how far into the throat the scroll fluting goes.

Thanks for all the feedback! Here are some more pictures that I hope provide more clues. 

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The scroll looks like Mittenwald mid-19th century, and I suspect doesn't belong to the rest. Body interesting, but the fake marks on the C bout ribs are really not good, and I the soundholes don't quite work for me.

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29 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

The scroll looks like Mittenwald mid-19th century, and I suspect doesn't belong to the rest. Body interesting, but the fake marks on the C bout ribs are really not good, and I the soundholes don't quite work for me.

Yes, the fake marks on the C bout ribs look like they were copied from Markneukirchen, the rest of the violin certainly doesn’t though. I would however had excluded Mittenwald being the origin of the scroll. One of those violins where you can make quite a long list of what it isn‘t<_<

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9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

.............since this violin would seem to be late 18th C., or early 19th C. one may exclude the use of an outside mould with certainty.

 

IMHO, whatever it is, it's much later than that, and deliberately antiqued.  :P

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31 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

IMHO, whatever it is, it's much later than that, and deliberately antiqued.  :P

Is this a five Minute argument, or the full half hour

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I think I can see that the front fluting at the scroll stops before the end, so it's most probably not Mittenwald made. OTOH, the slightly irregular geometry and sort of sloppiness seems to match the ff (which could be overworked at some point), so it could be well original. Interesting thought, that the rib scratching is rather a graffitti than antiquing, just because the rest doesn't show any other antiquing like this.

I'm usually guessing (half serious) that anything being hard to identify could probably be English, and the outline seems to recall somehow the Forster violin we saw at a recent thread, so I hoped that Peter could give some hint to a peasant English maker or something similar. But if he can't, it might be something else.

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19 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I think I can see that the front fluting at the scroll stops before the end, so it's most probably not Mittenwald made. OTOH, the slightly irregular geometry and sort of sloppiness seems to match the ff (which could be overworked at some point), so it could be well original. Interesting thought, that the rib scratching is rather a graffitti than antiquing, just because the rest doesn't show any other antiquing like this.

I'm usually guessing (half serious) that anything being hard to identify could probably be English, and the outline seems to recall somehow the Forster violin we saw at a recent thread, so I hoped that Peter could give some hint to a peasant English maker or something similar. But if he can't, it might be something else.

British rural and amateur makers mix traits a lot, but I don't feel comfortable just tossing anything that doesn't fit in that grab bag.  Maybe it's Tyrolean.  [Runs for the exit, giggling.]  ;):lol:

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12 hours ago, Violadamore said:

British rural and amateur makers mix traits a lot,

I wasn't thinking of a 19th century self taught amateur (you might be dealing with), but more of a classical trained person with a sloppy style of working. Maybe "peasant" was the wrong expression in this case..

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I am wondering whether the front is adapted from a different fiddle? There seems to be an awful lot of new edging and the thing is half-edged, which is of course not evidence of an adapted front, but also see asymmetry on C bouts (on the front), which maybe you shouldn't get from something made on an outside mould. Or maybe it's to do with the poor work of re-edging. I have seen others with similar excessively recessed rib mitres for the size of the corner.  I can't imagine a front corner/purfling mitre would survive long in these unsupportable situation. 

I still think the scroll looks Mittenwald, despite the fluting which may not reach quite the end as it should. 

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4 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

I am wondering whether the front is adapted from a different fiddle? There seems to be an awful lot of new edging and the thing is half-edged, which is of course not evidence of an adapted front, but also see asymmetry on C bouts (on the front), which maybe you shouldn't get from something made on an outside mould. Or maybe it's to do with the poor work of re-edging. I have seen others with similar excessively recessed rib mitres for the size of the corner.  I can't imagine a front corner/purfling mitre would survive long in these unsupportable situation. 

I still think the scroll looks Mittenwald, despite the fluting which may not reach quite the end as it should. 

Hi Peter,

Here’s some more pictures that might reveal more clues. The purfling on the top and back look the same. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

On balance, one of the rare violins we see here which may well turn out to be mid-18th century Italian. 

Worth investigating further in my opinion.

OK.  Very cool.  Had to happen sometime.  :lol:

In that case, the linings would be part of the repairs, right?  :huh:

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We can see an enormous amount of restoration, big patches in top and back, mostly replaced inner work, edges going quite a way in on the table, and a galaxy of cleats.

So whatever the violin is, it's deeply compromised. 

Having said that, I agree with Peter and think it looks more Italian than anything else - the back is lovely. What length is it?

It's by no means the first time we've seen something like this here, but it would take something much more refined and in better condition for me to get excited ...

I don't see why the scroll shouldn't belong.

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

We can see an enormous amount of restoration, big patches in top and back, mostly replaced inner work, edges going quite a way in on the table, and a galaxy of cleats.

So whatever the violin is, it's deeply compromised. 

Having said that, I agree with Peter and think it looks more Italian than anything else - the back is lovely. What length is it?

It's by no means the first time we've seen something like this here, but it would take something much more refined and in better condition for me to get excited ...

I don't see why the scroll shouldn't belong.

Well, I wasn’t expecting I have an old Italian... Will be interesting to discover more....

Yes, lots of repairs, but luckily no soundpost cracks to top or back. I don’t see any back patches at all, just on the top around both neck and end block areas. Maybe have it reworked in the future...

The length of back looks like 358mm. 

 

 

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