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Geometría fabrorum


Joaquín Fonollosa
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23 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Yes, that's it!

Thanks Reguz for reminding:)

 

 

11 hours ago, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

Seems to be a mix of Muratov, Brooks&Degrotte (The violin and the golden number) and Hambidge (The elements of dynamic symmetry), with perhaps some original ideas. It would be nice to have an explanation of how it all hangs together.

We can add to the previous list hanz Kaizer "die Form der Geige. Aus dem Gestz der töne gedeutet " Zûrich 1947. 

Esperando una explicación completa Joaquin!

Hanz Kaizer.jpeg

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Hace 1 hora, francoisdenis dijo:

Joaquim tuvo la oportunidad de recopilar investigaciones sobre el diseño del violín realizado por muchos autores.

Si acepta compartir una descripción completa de su trabajo en este foro o directamente a mí, no lo dude. 

Yes, thank you very much. I will be delighted through this forum. I need some time to prepare the description and the graphics.

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Fabrorum or workshop geometry.
PUBLISHED ON August 16, 2019
Of the measure, Alberto Dürer. Jeanne Peiffer, 2000.

“……… .. The goal of Dürer is to put at your disposal (of artisans and stonecutters) a deposit of correctly constructed forms in which each one can, at will, take those that interest him and deduct from them new ones that will be, ipso facto, mathematically accurate. These forms are described as if they were materials, as patterns, but indescribable patterns, whose accuracy would be unalterable. Dürer insists on the usefulness of the forms he builds for trades …… ”

The Dürer Treaty can be contemplated
as a work that should serve as a hinge between two traditions: the practical tradition of the workshops
Germans and the theoretical tradition of Italian schools. In the words of Erwin Panofsky: «The
Unterweisung der Messung served, so to speak, as a revolving door between the temple of mathematics.
Tica and the market place. While familiarizing the coopers and cabinetmakers with Euclid and Ptolemy,
I also familiarized professional mathematicians with what we might call the ‘geometry of
workshop ’» (Panofsky, E., 1982, p. 267).

On the design of the instruments at the time of Stradivari, Roger Hargrave writes:

“(Stewart) Pollens suggests that the absence of geometric construction marks in Stradivari molds is due to the use of paper templates. In the Stradivarian Museum collection, there are several folded paper templates, guitars, lutes, pochettes, violas da gamba and violas. Those templates, like the molds, have no obvious construction marks on them. Pollens concludes that the molds were probably marked using folded sheets of paper, which were cut to create a symmetrical template. The use of paper templates may well have been the method with which empirical adjustments were made. From a given standard design, a slight alteration with the scissors could have created a smaller violin, a larger one, a wider model, a long model and so on. The templates may even have been responsible for accidental variations; At a time when paper was an expensive product, it is likely that a modest slip with scissors would have been more tolerated than today. It is certainly reasonable to assume that empiricism, rather than a rigid geometry system, typified Stradivari's design technique, and that what was good for Stradivari was probably also good for Del Gesù. ”

With this background and moved by an infinite curiosity I began to draw. The objective was to find a simple system that would allow me to measure and trace all the lines of the instrument. On the other hand, it should be a complete system, configured around a "vault key", understood as the design generating geometry and that would remain hidden. By way of medieval architectures.

And then, following Dürer's recommendations, I started to play with their shapes and look for new variants. That was how I found my spiral template. It is obtained by intersecting two golden spirals, although it can also be done by transporting the arcs obtained in the first one, so that we have concave and convexes of the same size, very useful for tracing the corners.

Once the double spiral template was obtained, I tried to fit it over photographs of classic molds. It was a fun, but tedious process. In addition, my claim was not to speculate on how those molds were designed, but to place myself in a position and time similar to that of those lauderos. Imagine their mental processes, with the knowledge of that time that they could take advantage of and with the tools they could have. And I started working with that old disposition.

I discovered, little by little, that the template offered me a lot of information, much more than originally imagined. The rest are details that empiricism gives you.

https://violingeometriafabrorum.wordpress.com/2019/08/16/geometria-fabrorum-o-de-los-talleres/

Captura de pantalla -2019-08-16 21-51-05.png

IMG_20190707_111548-02.jpeg

IMG_20190807_153626-02.jpeg

Edited by Joaquín Fonollosa
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Obtained/generated is not the same as merely traced or followed.

Obtained means you selected a process and perhaps values, and these definitely create the one unique result desired.

If you want a genuinely generative approach to the designa seen in classical Cremona work, you'll will find it is all circle arcs and simple integer ratios all the way. 

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14 hours ago, David Beard said:

Obtenido / generado no es lo mismo que simplemente rastreado o seguido.

Obtenido significa que seleccionó un proceso y quizás valores, y estos definitivamente crean el único resultado deseado.

Si desea un enfoque genuinamente generativo para la designación que se ve en el trabajo clásico de Cremona, encontrará que se trata de arcos circulares y relaciones enteras simples en todo momento. 

Como expliqué anteriormente no pretendo ser un analista de los violines de Cremona, aunque en alguna ocasión piense que el sistema de diseño que yo propongo pudiera haber sido utilizado en el pasado. Todos los datos los he obtenido de forma empírica, trabajando y dibujando con la plantilla. No es mi pretensión hacer cambiar a nadie sus conceptos, sólo me limito a compartir mi pequeño trabajo, ceñido exclusivamente a la expresión gráfica, a la geometría. Como decimos en español, "no podemos cambiar conceptos como cambiamos de calcetines". De todas formas, no estoy de acuerdo en que el círculo sea la base del diseño de violines, quizá de alguno sí. Con las relaciones simples sí estoy de acuerdo.

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14 hours ago, David Beard said:

Obtenido / generado no es lo mismo que simplemente rastreado o seguido.

Obtenido significa que seleccionó un proceso y quizás valores, y estos definitivamente crean el único resultado deseado.

Si desea un enfoque genuinamente generativo para la designación que se ve en el trabajo clásico de Cremona, encontrará que se trata de arcos circulares y relaciones enteras simples en todo momento. 

As I explained earlier, I do not intend to be an analyst of the Cremona violins, although on occasion I think that the design system that I propose could have been used in the past. I have obtained all the data empirically, working and drawing with the template. It is not my intention to change your concepts to anyone, I just limit myself to sharing my little work, strictly limited to graphic expression, to geometry. As we say in Spanish, "we cannot change concepts as we change socks." Anyway, I do not agree that the circle is the basis of the violin design, perhaps of some yes. With simple relationships I do agree.

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18 minutes ago, Joaquín Fonollosa said:

As I explained earlier, I do not intend to be an analyst of the Cremona violins, although on occasion I think that the design system that I propose could have been used in the past. I have obtained all the data empirically, working and drawing with the template. It is not my intention to change your concepts to anyone, I just limit myself to sharing my little work, strictly limited to graphic expression, to geometry. As we say in Spanish, "we cannot change concepts as we change socks." Anyway, I do not agree that the circle is the basis of the violin design, perhaps of some yes. With simple relationships I do agree.

You do not present this clearly or consistently.  Often you veer toward statements that claim more than just a decorative playfulness.  You often appear to be claim to create violin shapes in this way, merely than just creating a visual jazz from them.

Muratov already made exactly the claim for spirals.

As this has been hashed through thoroughly elsewhere, I will not go into depth again.

Suffice to repeat here, families of spirals, and families of bent splint shapes are both sufficient to trace the shapes of classical Cremona violins to any degree of aproximation you choose, but will require an increasing number of spirals to continue improving the aproximation.

Circles however are the concept behind these Italian shapes. Only a finite number of circles are needed to idealize the design beyond the accuracy of the handwork.

Moreover, simply patterns of the circle choices can be observed running consistently across all the generations of Classical Cremona making.  And the slow evolution of the traditional choices can be observed.

Guides of circle geometry and aimple ratios govern all the features very thuroughly.  And the system they used generates the shapes through making simple choices within traditional options.

All the research for was done comparing the choice generated shapes directly to classical examples.  A very large number of instruments examples running across all the makers and generations of Old Cremona was used in the research.

 

That said, I do enjoy your work on a decorative level.

 

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4 minutes ago, David Beard said:

No presentas esto clara o consistentemente. A menudo se desvía hacia declaraciones que afirman más que solo un juego decorativo. A menudo pareces afirmar que creas formas de violín de esta manera, simplemente que solo creas un jazz visual a partir de ellas.

Muratov ya hizo exactamente la demanda de espirales.

Como esto se ha analizado a fondo en otra parte, no volveré a profundizar.

Basta con repetir aquí, las familias de espirales y las familias de formas de férula dobladas son suficientes para trazar las formas de los violines Cremona clásicos a cualquier grado de aproximación que elija, pero requerirá un número creciente de espirales para continuar mejorando la aproximación.

Sin embargo, los círculos son el concepto detrás de estas formas italianas. Solo se necesita un número finito de círculos para idealizar el diseño más allá de la precisión del trabajo manual.

Además, se pueden observar patrones simples de las elecciones circulares que se ejecutan de manera consistente en todas las generaciones de creación clásica de Cremona. Y se puede observar la lenta evolución de las elecciones tradicionales.

Las guías de geometría circular y las relaciones de puntería gobiernan todas las características muy minuciosamente. Y el sistema que usaron genera las formas a través de elecciones simples dentro de las opciones tradicionales.

Toda la investigación se realizó comparando las formas generadas por elección directamente con ejemplos clásicos. En la investigación se utilizó una gran cantidad de ejemplos de instrumentos que se aplicaron a todos los fabricantes y generaciones de Old Cremona.

 

Dicho esto, disfruto tu trabajo en un nivel decorativo.

 

Thanks David for your comments. I understand that the feeling you have left of my work is that it is only about decoration. Not in vain I try that the images and the drawings are beautiful, not without content. I know your work and that of other admirable authors. But my explanations are as clear as those transmitted by the Cremona luthiers .... No explanation. I try to place myself in that period, before the standard, an effective work period, without looking at photos or plans.

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Hace 3 horas, Dennis J dijo:

Las únicas partes circulares de un violín son los agujeros de clavija.

 

Sí lo es. El uso de circunferencias completas y vesica piscis me parece bueno para expresar esquemas y proporciones. De un círculo se deduce fácilmente su centro, su radio y su diámetro, punto y segmentos que se manejan bien.

IMG_20190714_132426-01.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Dennis J said:

The only circular parts of a violin are the peg holes.

 

Looks that way casually.  Put on classical italian stuff it all derives from joined arcs.

Thus the radii of all the curves run in constant segments that abruptly change at the joins.

Here is the basic way the arcs combine.

In the real traditional examples shapes come from a combination of using using tradirional geometry consteuction choices combined with tradition ratio choices that guide placement and sizing.

A consistent use of such methods can be observed running through all the generations of the classical Cremona making.

1349933081_OutlineConstruction.thumb.jpg.6b53f70de3890826ef17131c0db27ddc.jpg

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