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Stamp in my 1736 Violin


JLEE
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Hi all,

does anyone recognize this stamp in my 1736 German Violin?

also, does anyone else feel the first character is not a 9 as a pencil stroke for 9 is very strong and would have endured over the centuries?  Maybe 18th century German script initials and not even numbers?  I also read an article that stated violins of this time had 56 parts.  Initials and QC mark?

Anyway, interesting mark and speculation.  

Thanks in advance,

Jason

 

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917CC9B5-681C-4ECA-B69F-37599B95CAEA.jpeg

Edited by JLEE
Adding additional info. Thanks.
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The font of the stamp appears to my eye to be 20th-c.  Though you are apparently certain that your violin is a 1736 Klotz, we have no idea whether or not that's the case (we would need to see photos...If you are going to post photos, read this first--https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/333119-how-to-photograph-an-instrument-for-identifcation-purposes/), but in any case the "956" has nothing to do with the number of parts (One piece back or two?  Do you count the purfling? As three pieces or one piece?...) , though I would think that a Klotz would have one less part since they generally have a one-piece bottom rib.  My guess is that it's an inventory number of some sort, but maybe a real expert will weigh in here...

 

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I have an appraiser looking at it soon, but just ran across these new markings.  The more I look at the imprints around the characters, the more they may not be numbers (maybe “Seb K” with parts of the pencil worn away leaving what looks like numbers - the angle is not right for the #9 and looks more like a S and I see a faint outline of an e and the 5 may be a b).  But then again maybe not. 

The Mittenwald Museum thinks it’s a Sebastian Klotz, but I’ll have to see what the appraiser says as the Museum doesn’t make Certs and only provides opinions (which I am thankful they were so gracious to offer).  

Here are picts, but for the time being it is a Klotz Circle, until I can get it certified (if enough distinguishing factors exist).

Btw, I got 56 from the screenshot I posted talking about Mittenwald violins.

Thanks. 

Measurements

359mm length

160mm top

110mm mid

204mm lower

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vT8d8rkv7RZbPGKf6

FBB36B92-2B68-4615-9216-7C67F539F028.jpeg

C6B08A21-4644-4427-A009-CA59D539F1BA.jpeg

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5F043626-7001-4221-970F-5232806EFFB0.jpeg

Edited by JLEE
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12 hours ago, Julian Cossmann Cooke said:

As to the date 1736, it might be significant that the seven does not have a bar on it that is common to some older German script, though perhaps not always used at that time.  Someone else -- Jacob Saunders -- would know better than I.

Thanks for the reply, but 99% of the Kloz violin on the Mittenwald Museum site have the sane type of 7.  

Edited by JLEE
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It's a sort of pseudo-magical approach to count "parts" of a violin, these numbers are always depending of the way how and what you are counting. The marks are in my eyes clearly later applied inventory numbers or the like in a 20th century font and there are usually no such marks in Mittenwald violins by the makers (in opposite to Markneukirchen makers, who often applied a three or more letters stamp, years, stars, trees etc.)

I must admit that the label doesn't look very convincing to me, too, not like 18th century ink nor paper, and that the model of the violin (though probably an old Mittenwald made instrument) isn't very similar to Sebastian Kloz violins I'm familiar with. But this might not be the last word.

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3 hours ago, Blank face said:

It's a sort of pseudo-magical approach to count "parts" of a violin, these numbers are always depending of the way how and what you are counting. The marks are in my eyes clearly later applied inventory numbers or the like in a 20th century font and there are usually no such marks in Mittenwald violins by the makers (in opposite to Markneukirchen makers, who often applied a three or more letters stamp, years, stars, trees etc.)

I must admit that the label doesn't look very convincing to me, too, not like 18th century ink nor paper, and that the model of the violin (though probably an old Mittenwald made instrument) isn't very similar to Sebastian Kloz violins I'm familiar with. But this might not be the last word.

Just washed out lighting on the label from using a flashlight.  Here is a more expanded view and label material looks correct (with the fibers). 

Again, the Mittenwald Museum believes it to be a Sebaftian Kloz based off the video and pictures I sent (contained in this post).  

I also (no expert obviously) think the 95 may be S and b as the angle of the characters.  If numbers, it would seem it would have been written left to right same angle and straight. Maybe a missing character in-between? The first 2 characters look to have written in one string, with the last written separately   Thanks for the input  

53B3026E-68D7-4BFB-BCC9-6E370D987725.jpeg

Edited by JLEE
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Revisiting the museum's website it seems indeed similar to the very early example of ca. 1725, described as "probably Sebastian K.". This is quite different from the post 1730 model, so a 1736 date would be too late. If it's real, would be a very rare find.

I can't tell about the label by this unfocussed photo, except that it seems to be solved and reglued at some point. This could even happen to genuine labels, but it could be also a (handwritten) copy of a later S.Kloz label to justify an attribution. The museum's example is bearing one of those 18th century printed Stainer labels.

But leaving aside the label question, I'm still thinking that the stamp is a later added numbering and nothing else.

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Thanks all for taking the time for your thoughts and input. 

Maybe Sebastian had multiple models he made throughout the years? My Violin has the same body arches and Varnish as the violin below whom some believe “a Kloz” made for Mozart.  

Or...Sebastian made the top earlier and either got sidetracked on a large order or was waiting to pair it with the proper high quality maple back (the figured piece of maple on my violin puts my Les Paul to shame).   

 

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Edited by JLEE
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28 minutes ago, palousian said:

The f-holes and corners on the OP violin are significantly different than this so-called "Mozart" violin, which I think is by Aegidius K., not Sebastian.  Lotza Klotzs.  But I agree that the back on your lovely violin is awesome.

Thanks, I was pointing out the arches/varnish matching vs. the other aspects (arches easily identifiable by the space between fingerboard/tail piece and top of violin).

Treble side (Bass in some situations) f holes are harder to compare as violins of this age seem to have “droopy” treble side f holes (prominence dependent on climate/humidity/etc. over the centuries) which make the shape distorted and hard to compare unless you see the amount of droop and can compensate for it in person or really good video (pictures can’t adequately show warped/drooped f holes).  

The Violin sounds amazing and after quitting 30 years ago; the sound, mystique and possible Kloz heritage is enough to fuel my journey back into Violin.  

To play Baroque pieces on a Baroque violin (Age at least seems correct) is super enjoyable.

Provenance may never be determined, but at the end of the day It’s a solid instrument that has incredible range across the whole fingerboard.

 

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...the plot thickens.   Maybe the stamp inside my violin is a price or weight?

from The Mittenwald Museum site, they have a picture of the below with the same number 9.56. Maybe the period is missing from my violin as a period would not be a heavy stroke that lasted centuries.  But my German is non existent, so maybe this is not violin related?

315A5A20-3726-451B-A6E9-38BF35700716.jpeg

Edited by JLEE
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