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Is it really a Strad ?

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17 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Milstein played it at the Hills' shop, and had no doubt what it was.  That's good enough for me.  :)

Aaaah... so it says in Wikipedia.  :)

 

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57 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

My feeling exactly:)

Can you explain in layman's terms in what ways a tree growing somewhere in the open and with low ground water doesn't differ from one growing on a slope on a river bank in a forest a half mile away at the same time?

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If JBV had a top that displayed that flaw in the treble side of the top do you think he would have used the piece of wood and finished the instrument?  Are there any other top quality JBV fiddles that display such flaws?

 

DLB

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9 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

If you type  "Messiah Maestronet" on Google come out at least 20 topics on the subject. Are we sure it's worth starting another one?

There will never be a conclusive answer , it's just a matter of opinions, make yours and live with it.

Not a Vuillaume, however, when the Messiah was on show here in Cremona it was exhibited together with three copies of Vuillaume and the differences could be seen well.

And then, making several copies of one's own copy seems somewhat convoluted....:rolleyes:

My favorite idea is that Hargrave took a time travel vacation and made it in Strad's shop.

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43 minutes ago, TimRobinson said:

I said this years ago in one of these discussions, if it's not the Messiah it is just a very naughty boy...

Tim

Bwian!

Fling him to the floor most woughly centuwrion!

DLB

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1 hour ago, David Beard said:

My favorite idea is that Hargrave took a time travel vacation and made it in Strad's shop.

Roger can do anything! :wub:

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16 minutes ago, Rue said:

Wait! What's Roger's middle name???

Graham, and he's not the Messiah either,  just a very naughty boy in a rabbit suit.  :lol:

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10 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

Can you explain in layman's terms in what ways a tree growing somewhere in the open and with low ground water doesn't differ from one growing on a slope on a river bank in a forest a half mile away at the same time?

Bill, You would have to supply me with 2 such trees, and I would be able to tell you.

Relative altitude of both trees would play a big part in the level of relationship. The more elevated and commensurate the tree-growth, the higher the relationship is likely to be, and the lesser the influence of factors other than temperature would come into force.

If your trees are at low altitude or plain, most immediate environmental, climatic and pedological factors are likely to influence tree growth and I suspect the ring-to-ring width variations would have little in common in those 2 trees. 

I think it would be very difficult to date the wood of such trees against reliable regional references, which tend to be sampled at higher altitude, where the signal is much more uniform and dependable.

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On 8/6/2019 at 10:19 AM, martin swan said:

There are one or two other untouched instruments out there. Any encounter with them provokes the same reaction - "that can't be real".

The truth of it is that we have a totally skewed idea of what these violins looked like when they were new, and we are unwilling to accept how much of our concept of a "proper" Strad is a result of interventions and modifications over the centuries.

I very much agree.

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On August 6, 31 Heisei at 11:19 PM, martin swan said:

There are one or two other untouched instruments out there. Any encounter with them provokes the same reaction - "that can't be real".

The truth of it is that we have a totally skewed idea of what these violins looked like when they were new, and we are unwilling to accept how much of our concept of a "proper" Strad is a result of interventions and modifications over the centuries.

I would be too curious to see a DG in the same condition to know if it had similar edge work.

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Does anybody know for how long the “Chardon” is displayed? It seems to have a more intense red than the messiah. This could be of course because it was like that from the beginning, another possibility would be that a lot of the cochineal and other light-sensitive reds have faded on the messiah.                

Generally the chardon shows me one thing: The varnish job is a lot cleaner than the rest of the violin. Looks like the finish and varnish job could be made by a different person, maybe in a varnish shop. Look at the guitar making tradition in Granada - almost nobody varnished their guitar by himself 20 years ago. There were plenty of French polish shops around, which even did the final sanding.

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57 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

Does anybody know for how long the “Chardon” is displayed? It seems to have a more intense red than the messiah. This could be of course because it was like that from the beginning, another possibility would be that a lot of the cochineal and other light-sensitive reds have faded on the messiah.                

Generally the chardon shows me one thing: The varnish job is a lot cleaner than the rest of the violin. Looks like the finish and varnish job could be made by a different person, maybe in a varnish shop. Look at the guitar making tradition in Granada - almost nobody varnished their guitar by himself 20 years ago. There were plenty of French polish shops around, which even did the final sanding.

Or .... the colored varnish was so easy to apply in a uniform color layer that even the most sloppy maker could do a perfect job. I'm led to think more about this eventuality, but it could also be like your hypothesis, who knows.

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I was at the ashmolean just two days ago and saw the messiah. I really don't know why theses threads crop up every couple of years. Just from visual inspection alone it would be difficult to disput its authenticity. Plus all the scientific research...

if you haven't seeing it, it is worth the trip to Oxford. 

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On 8/6/2019 at 10:19 AM, martin swan said:

There are one or two other untouched instruments out there. Any encounter with them provokes the same reaction - "that can't be real".

They're not untouched but I thought about this thread yesterday when we saw the Medici tenore viola (and cello) at the Accademia in Florence.  Most folks head straight to David but my violist and cellist kids made a beeline to the musical instrument collection.  Stunningly beautiful instruments apparently in original condition.  I didn't know the history, wondered aloud about the size, and my son takes out his iphone, uses a measuring app, and says, "just under 19 inches dad" :-).

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3 hours ago, StanY said:

They're not untouched but I thought about this thread yesterday when we saw the Medici tenore viola (and cello) at the Accademia in Florence. 

The tenor viola is likely the most 'untouched' strad. teh S+Z book on the Tuscan Medici violin has an exellent survey of the medici set

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On 8/10/2019 at 3:15 PM, Urban Luthier said:

I was at the ashmolean just two days ago and saw the messiah. I really don't know why theses threads crop up every couple of years. Just from visual inspection alone it would be difficult to disput its authenticity. Plus all the scientific research...

...

Not to keep idolizing Roger or anything (:wub:) but -

If Roger can make a violin that fooled the experts, and he was the only expert to refute those experts, since he made the instrument in question...and the experts were reluctant to believe him even then - 

Why not?

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On August 7, 31 Heisei at 4:38 PM, Ratcliffiddles said:

Bill, You would have to supply me with 2 such trees, and I would be able to tell you.

Relative altitude of both trees would play a big part in the level of relationship. The more elevated and commensurate the tree-growth, the higher the relationship is likely to be, and the lesser the influence of factors other than temperature would come into force.

If your trees are at low altitude or plain, most immediate environmental, climatic and pedological factors are likely to influence tree growth and I suspect the ring-to-ring width variations would have little in common in those 2 trees. 

I think it would be very difficult to date the wood of such trees against reliable regional references, which tend to be sampled at higher altitude, where the signal is much more uniform and dependable.

Interesting. 

Does this mean that drndrochronology is only reliable for different trees if they grow in high altitude? 

And for trees in low altitude precise match can be only found if it is one and the same tree? 

Someone told me too that precise dating can be done only for a count of over 50 year rings.

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