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XXIIXCVI

Joseph Rocca 1837

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Edit: It seems this violin was sold at the time of writing for $1,200

So I happened over this. The seller claims it comes from an estate. What’s most baffling is the varnish! I’ve never seen such stains/marks like that on any violin. Thoughts?

Label: Joseph Antonius Rocca fecit Taurini anno Domini 1837

Neck graft: I can hardly tell the pictures are not that good 

varnish: brown to golden with strange marks that look like...mold? Mineral deposits anyone? 

Could this be a real Rocca? 

Joseph Rocca 1837

Edited by XXIIXCVI

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11 hours ago, XXIIXCVI said:

Edit: It seems this violin was sold at the time of writing for $1,200

So I happened over this. The seller claims it comes from an estate. What’s most baffling is the varnish! I’ve never seen such stains/marks like that on any violin. Thoughts?

Label: Joseph Antonius Rocca fecit Taurini anno Domini 1837

Neck graft: I can hardly tell the pictures are not that good 

varnish: brown to golden with strange marks that look like...mold? Mineral deposits anyone? 

Could this be a real Rocca? 

Joseph Rocca 1837

Well done for not bidding, you just saved yourself from wasting your money.

This is just cheap rubbish, which has had some horrible repairs done in the past, and now someone has decided to "enhance" it further by drawing black bits on with a marker pen to make the clueless think it must be ancient and valuable. A fanciful tale about a prominent estate, and supposed professional use seal the deal for those without any sense.

Are you sure it's from an estate? Looks more like it's in a state.

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Just comes to show you cant trust eBay on matters such as these. I just hope it turns out to be at least a German made copy and not some VSO for whoever ended up buying it! 

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48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The usual with extra screwdriver ageing, or "Gypsied up" as Martin recently described it

I slightly cringe at my use of the term - it was meant to refer specifically to the sort of rebranding and relabelling carried out in the south of France by people who would describe themselves as "Gitans", not as a catch-all racial slur :(

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It was also clearly listed as an "Italian Violin," and the buyer (OP?) can force a return through eBay because the item is not authentic nor as described. And the seller has to pay the return shipping costs.

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38 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

It was also clearly listed as an "Italian Violin," and the buyer (OP?) can force a return through eBay because the item is not authentic nor as described. And the seller has to pay the return shipping costs.

I didn’t buy this but I’m sure the seller would argue a lot with the buyer about returns 

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6 hours ago, XXIIXCVI said:

I didn’t buy this but I’m sure the seller would argue a lot with the buyer about returns 

They could try, but they would lose. Ebay is pretty responsive to buyers regarding inauthentic and counterfeit merchandise being sold on their platform. Claiming "Italian Violin" is different than claiming "possibly Italian violin."

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" I was told that based on the locations of the stains and wear from hand oils that this violin most likely belonged to a professional orchestra musician."

Lordy, never quite seen verbiage like that before, lol.

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Varnish wear can sometimes be quite puzzling. For example, this violin ("the usual") has been played considerably during its lifetime. The varnish wear is all real.

The varnish is completely gone down to the wood in the chin rest area, but I can't figure out what caused the wear pattern under the on the lower bass bout extending under the strings and bridge. Sweat? Alcohol breath?

top_wear.jpg

top.jpg

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1 hour ago, vathek said:

So the pros exude a specific type of hand oil? Is there a way I can have mine tested?

Ph must be high I suppose lol 

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15 hours ago, Spelman said:

" I was told that based on the locations of the stains and wear from hand oils that this violin most likely belonged to a professional orchestra musician."

Lordy, never quite seen verbiage like that before, lol.

Is the sweat from a professional different from that of an amateur?

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4 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

George, that looks like a cleaning attempt gone dreadfully wrong.

Thanks, that sounds like a likely explanation.

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Too many awesome quotes to list :) You guys crack me up!  

One of the best things I've ever seen (and heard!) was a bluegrass fiddler pick up a Rocca,  give it a once-over, think about it for a few seconds, then unbuckle the left strap of his overalls before sitting down to play it.  If it was this one, he probably wouldn't have bothered.

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On 8/5/2019 at 8:51 AM, Dave Slight said:

George, that looks like a cleaning attempt gone dreadfully wrong.

Or antiquing with sandpaper to make a wall hanging or to make it look to the sander like an idol's fiddle.  If it was from cleaning you'd think they would have stopped sooner...  Definitely not natural wear though.  All in the wrong places and in some impossible places.

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18 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Or antiquing with sandpaper

No signs of sanding. I looked closely for that. I really wonder if it has something to do with perspiration or alcohol. Maybe a string cleaning with alcohol gone wrong. 

The varnish is not water soluble - I checked that.

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22 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

No signs of sanding. I looked closely for that. I really wonder if it has something to do with perspiration or alcohol. Maybe a string cleaning with alcohol gone wrong.

Maybe steel wool or something else that didn't leave scratches then.  Can't picture a string cleaning going that wrong :) But might be an attempt to fix?   If you had a microscope you might be able to look at the boundaries and decide whether it's rubbed away, melted away, etc...

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The "beard rash" where it has been played without a chin rest makes sense. The rest of the wear makes no sense at all! Even wear going UNDER the bridge is not possible on an instrument with strings in place, so that is not natural playing wear. Also I note a lack of "high position wear" along the treble side of the fingerboard? And it is worn on the bass side of the upper bout?

I don't think this is natural wear.

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