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Dom40

Ernst Heinrich Roth made in 1925 ( Josef Guarneri 1734 )

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Could anybody please tell me what the 1128 means under the brand ?Am I wrong in saying this is a really well made violin ? Thanks 

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12 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Lots of discussion of Roth violins previously on MN. Different grades, sales arrangements etc. thisd  one looks to me to be one of the middle grades and yes they are well made and have some value.

Just found this Nathan so I take it that its one of his better models. According to the list . Thank you for your help . 

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The grade of a Roth instrument can be determined by the date indicated on the label of the instrument that is purportedly being reproduced -- 1734 in your case.  The lowest grades are dated 1700 and the grade increases as the date becomes later.  I forget the exact system, but 1734 is one of the higher grades.  I'm sure someone else here knows exactly which one.

Many thousands of Roths were exported to the United States from the 1920s on.  They were -- and still are -- mass-produced workshop instruments, but of very high quality.  Even the 1700s are pretty good.  In fine condition, the better grades from the 1920s and 1930s retail in violin shops in the $5000 to $10,000 range.

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15 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

The grade of a Roth instrument can be determined by the date indicated on the label of the instrument that is purportedly being reproduced -- 1734 in your case.  The lowest grades are dated 1700 and the grade increases as the date becomes later.  I forget the exact system, but 1734 is one of the higher grades.  I'm sure someone else here knows exactly which one.

Many thousands of Roths were exported to the United States from the 1920s on.  They were -- and still are -- mass-produced workshop instruments, but of very high quality.  Even the 1700s are pretty good.  In fine condition, the better grades from the 1920s and 1930s retail in violin shops in the $5000 to $10,000 range.

A great help thank you . 

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The 1734 Guarneri is a lower grade.  You can also tell by the type of label (though labels are another topic).  I understood that the cursive writing labels generally indicate lower grade Roths.  I have an IXR Guarneri.  The date of the reproduced model matters for the Strad versions only.

In any event, it looks to be in good condition and if it sounds as wonderful as mine, then great find!

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19 minutes ago, violinnewb said:

Just curious (no I am not a luthier) but why is the top off?

I bought it like that ! Will all be set up soon.

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Wow! 

Anyways, I personally think the violin looks great and hope it sounds great too.  At the end of the day, all that matters is that you like the violin.  That is my takeaway from this forum.

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I am a bit confused by the Roth "model numbers " X1R etc ...

This Wikipedia article suggests that they were established in the 1920s and printed in "Roth catalogues". I think they must mean Scherl & Roth catalogues ...?

Also I have the strong feeling that these model designations are retro-fits, and that they came into use rather later. 

The "copy of Stradivarius 1700" is a complete model designation in itself, referring entirely to the quality of the violin rather than any attempt to copy a particular Strad, so why did they need two separate equally obscure ways of making the same distinctions?

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2 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I am a bit confused by the Roth "model numbers " X1R etc ...

This Wikipedia article suggests that they were established in the 1920s and printed in "Roth catalogues". I think they must mean Scherl & Roth catalogues ...?

Also I have the strong feeling that these model designations are retro-fits, and that they came into use rather later. 

The "copy of Stradivarius 1700" is a complete model designation in itself, referring entirely to the quality of the violin rather than any attempt to copy a particular Strad, so why did they need two separate equally obscure ways of making the same distinctions?

The Roths sent me an excerpt of the 1920s Roth Catalog (with my explicit agreement not to publicly share) that provides descriptions and photos of each grade of violin.  Pretty sure it wasn't the Scherl and Roth.  You can find it on the Amazon website but not for sale.

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I have seen an inventory of early Roths with the Stradivarius etc. designations and the year of manufacture, but the model designations were added retrospectively in a different hand.

I wonder if this was an exclusively US system?

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If one were to soak out the label you would find the model designation (IXR,VIIIR, ect) written in pencil under the label.

I've got the early 30's catalog(red cover) around here somewhere. I'll try an find it later.

Good fiddle. Has Value.

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I also got a paolo fiorini violin in the same auction. Is it also made by the Roth company ? Il pop some better pictures up when I get home . 

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16 minutes ago, duane88 said:

If one were to soak out the label you would find the model designation (IXR,VIIIR, ect) written in pencil under the label.

I've got the early 30's catalog(red cover) around here somewhere. I'll try an find it later.

Good fiddle. Has Value.

Aha - that makes sense.

So the Roman numerals are a workshop shorthand, and afterwards they stuck in the appropriate label?

Duane, I would love to see some images of the catalogue if you can be bothered!

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The Paolo Fiorini label hasn't been conclusively attributed to the EH Roth workshops - but there were quite a few firms making very good violins of broadly similar quality at this time. The label was used by Beares for their MK equivalent of the French-sourced "Francois Barzoni" violin.

Although EH Roth has somehow caught the popular imagination ( and I think this has a lot to do with their nerdy classification system and serial numbers), their work isn't unique., They just had the better marketing ...

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9 minutes ago, martin swan said:

The Paolo Fiorini label hasn't been conclusively attributed to the EH Roth workshops - but there were quite a few firms making very good violins of broadly similar quality at this time. The label was used by Beares for their MK equivalent of the French-sourced "Francois Barzoni" violin.

Although EH Roth has somehow caught the popular imagination ( and I think this has a lot to do with their nerdy classification system and serial numbers), their work isn't unique., They just had the better marketing ...

Thanks Martin. Am I wrong in saying the scrolls look quite alike ? 

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No - they are both quite typical better grade MK trade violins. Perhaps the chamfers are marginally nicer on the Roth but that could just be lighting ...

As with the big Mirecourt workshops, there is some doubt in my mind as to whether the EH Roth workshop actually produced all their violins from scratch - there are some quite generic MK models which could easily have been bought in the white and then personalized.

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