Vuillaume violin.

[Clivan]

Hi, there I have been looking at a violin and the seller believes that it's an original Vuillaume. I don't of course, but there is some stamp/sticker on the inside that says "VUILLAUME a Paris Rue Croix des Petits Camps 46."

any suggestions on the possible origin of this violin ? Pictures included.

[lwl]

Out of curiosity, what is the seller (presumably an optimistic individual with an attic violin, or an eBay scammer, and not a dealer/shop) doing to try to convince you it's real? Do they claim to have any paperwork?

[Clivan]

I presume the buyer is going after the sticker inside. He also said that it was handmade around 1890. I don't know if this info is also from the sticker or if he has anymore info. It is not a dealer, private individual in Europe.

[Delabo]

2 hours ago, Clivan said:

any suggestions on the possible origin of this violin ?

Markneukirchen germany.

 late 19th - early 20th century.

 

[Clivan]

5 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Markneukirchen germany.

 late 19th - early 20th century.

 

If it is a German violin, a Markneukirchen, where would the label come in ? Was it attempt to fool or were there cases where they made copies ? Is anyone in a position to confirm whether this violin might be interesting from a collector's perspective, I mean to confirm that it is indeed older and not a cheap Chinese knock off.

[sospiri]

18 hours ago, Clivan said:

If it is a German violin, a Markneukirchen, where would the label come in ? Was it attempt to fool or were there cases where they made copies ? Is anyone in a position to confirm whether this violin might be interesting from a collector's perspective, I mean to confirm that it is indeed older and not a cheap Chinese knock off.

I think it's a 1950s Schönbach. Value about $100

There were Vuillaume copies made in Germany in the 20th Century and they were better than this one which is just an ordinary factory instrument.

 

[jacobsaunders]

18 hours ago, Clivan said:

If it is a German violin, a Markneukirchen, where would the label come in ? Was it attempt to fool or were there cases where they made copies ? Is anyone in a position to confirm whether this violin might be interesting from a collector's perspective, I mean to confirm that it is indeed older and not a cheap Chinese knock off.

The label will either come from somewhere like this https://mae stronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-schönfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046 or with Vuillaume labels, they can often be the label soaked of an old cake of rosin box. There is no attempt to copy anything here, it is just a cheap violin with a bogus label

[martin swan]

Very badly made Schoenbach violin from the early 20th century - the label has absolutely nothing do do with the violin.

Look at how off square the rib corners are - this tells you that it was made "freehand" without a mold, and very quickly and carelessly too,

[sospiri]

9 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Very badly made Schoenbach violin from the early 20th century - ,

I think they got slightly better after WWII, not roughed out in 3 minutes, more like 5 or maybe 6? But still with the integral bass bar. I don't know how long they continued to produce them, I guess into the 60s, when Chinese violins begat to take over the mass market?

[jacobsaunders]

7 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I think they got slightly better after WWII, not roughed out in 3 minutes, more like 5 or maybe 6? But still with the integral bass bar. I don't know how long they continued to produce them, I guess into the 60s, when Chinese violins begat to take over the mass market?

The integral bar gradually fell into disuse after the introduction of the Thau milling Maschine 

 

[martin swan]

I would also be interested to know when BOB cottage industry stuff died out - I haven't really seen anything after 1920 or so that wasn't made on a mold.

jacob?

 

[sospiri]

2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The integral bar gradually fell into disuse after the introduction of the Thau milling Maschine 

Bollocks

 

 

[Blank face]

31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I would also be interested to know when BOB cottage industry stuff died out - I haven't really seen anything after 1920 or so that wasn't made on a mold.

jacob?

 

Two different questions. Cottage industry died out slowly after the Black Friday,quickly when the Nazi Arbeitsdienst made violin workers to construction workers.

Bob made violins were still produced after WW II. I had some GDR as well as Czechoslowakia made in this way.

 Integral bass bars with roughed out tops were finished in the early 20th due to the milling machines.

[Delabo]

55 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Very badly made Schoenbach violin from the early 20th century

Any reason that you have opted for Schoenbach rather than Markneukirchen ?

The OP did not mention an integral bass bar or through neck usually associated with Schoenbach.

Is it quality of construction ? shiny varnish ?  wood ?

[Rue]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

I think it's a 1950s Schönbach. Value about $100

There were Vuillaume copies made in Germany in the 20th Century and they were better than this one which is just an ordinary factory instrument.

 

I think you have to up your price point.

Any decent playable "better" violin is worth a little more than that...

[sospiri]

Just now, Rue said:

I think you have to up your price point.

Any decent playable "better" violin is worth a little more than that...

I think you have to read more carefully.

 

[sospiri]

7 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Any reason that you have opted for Schoenbach rather than Markneukirchen ?

The OP did not mention an integral bass bar or through neck usually associated with Schoenbach.

Is it quality of construction ? shiny varnish ?  wood ?

Can't speak for Martin, but they are recognisable by their features and were produced extremely quickly and in great numbers. You see them regularly on ebay. And yes they do have integral bass bars and were produced I believe up until the Chinese Lark and Skylark invasion, which I think was the 1960s?

[Rue]

5 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I think you have to read more carefully.

 

Nope.

 Around here a Mendini would sell for $150...extra for the case and bow...

$500 min. For the above...

[Kallie]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Nope.

 Around here a Mendini would sell for $150...extra for the case and bow...

$500 min. For the above...

 The market value on these "cheap factory" instruments depends on where you live and how easily the instruments are obtainable. I generally sell these for about 300$, which includes Dominant strings or similar (already about 80$), a new bridge, re-fitted pegs, a new tailpiece and new soundpost.

[sospiri]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Nope.

 Around here a Mendini would sell for $150...extra for the case and bow...

$500 min. For the above...

From a dealer maybe? But on ebay you can buy a generic Saxon box for $100. It depends how honest the seller is. There are some ebay sellers who tell you what it is instead of pretending it's something much better.

[sospiri]

1 minute ago, Kallie said:

 The market value depends on where you live and how easily the instruments are obtainable. I generally sell these for about 300$, which includes Dominant strings or similar (already about 80$), a new bridge, re-fitted pegs, a new tailpiece and new soundpost.

Like.

[Delabo]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

Nope.

 Around here a Mendini would sell for $150...extra for the case and bow...

$500 min. For the above...

Goodness, I shall have to learn how to export to Canada.

These turn up at local auctions quite regularly for £10 - £20 , and personally I never bid on them anymore.

[Blank face]

6 minutes ago, sospiri said:

And yes they do have integral bass bars and were produced I believe up until the Chinese Lark and Skylark invasion, which I think was the 1960s?

That's bollocks, of course. More complicated.

Schönbach could produce some better instruments, but in general they were mostlydepending from the Markneukirchen wholesalers and produced either parts like boxes, necks, rib garlands etc. to be finished in Markneukirchen or rather cheap and nasty violins for the trade. In the late 19th and early 20th century some wholesalers firms were established there, too, like Gebrüder Placht, but they had a hard stand against the Markneukirchner.

Once more, the old way with integral bars, through necks and beaver teeth like roughed out plates was finsihed after 1900, the whole industry collapsed in the economical crisis in the late 1920ies and the rest was done by the Nazi regime and the war. The after war Czechoslovakian and GDR mass production was based on the few remaining makers, but hadn't much in common with cottage industry and was rather factory based. All this is detailed reported by Kauert and others.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, Delabo said:

Any reason that you have opted for Schoenbach rather than Markneukirchen ?

The OP did not mention an integral bass bar or through neck usually associated with Schoenbach.

Is it quality of construction ? shiny varnish ?  wood ?

Since Kauert documents that the Markneukirchener already imported some 100,000 "Schachtel" p.a. from Schönbach in the late 19th C., I would contend that anyone who thinks he can divide cheap Schönbach violins from cheap Markneukirchen violins (or any of the other two dozen or so villages), is talking BS. Through neck and carved bass bar is the traditional method of this whole area back to the 18th C. Since one can carve a bar, but hardly mill one, I would refer to the introduction of the Thau milling Maschine above.

[sospiri]

31 minutes ago, Blank face said:

That's bollocks, of course. More complicated.

Schönbach could produce some better instruments, but in general they were mostlydepending from the Markneukirchen wholesalers and produced either parts like boxes, necks, rib garlands etc. to be finished in Markneukirchen or rather cheap and nasty violins for the trade. In the late 19th and early 20th century some wholesalers firms were established there, too, like Gebrüder Placht, but they had a hard stand against the Markneukirchner.

Once more, the old way with integral bars, through necks and beaver teeth like roughed out plates was finsihed after 1900, the whole industry collapsed in the economical crisis in the late 1920ies and the rest was done by the Nazi regime and the war. The after war Czechoslovakian and GDR mass production was based on the few remaining makers, but hadn't much in common with cottage industry and was rather factory based. All this is detailed reported by Kauert and others.

I don't believe integral bass bars were not used after the 1920s. I think they were still in use after WWII.

 

1 minute ago, jacobsaunders said:

Since Kauert documents that the Markneukirchener already imported some 100,000 "Schachtel" p.a. from Schönbach in the late 19th C., I would contend that anyone who thinks he can divide cheap Schönbach violins from cheap Markneukirchen violins (or any of the other two dozen or so villages), is talking BS. Through neck and carved bass bar is the traditional method of this whole area back to the 18th C. Since one can carve a bar, but hardly mill one, I would refer to the introduction of the Thau milling Maschine above.

I accept your first point. The term Schönbach box is too generic.

But your point about the Thua milling machine is reductive too. Gouge marks plainly visible on the underside of the belly are not machine made. And the integral bass bar alongside them.... the point to debate is when an instrument was made.