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finnfinnviolin

Show your ground!

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Darkening the wood isn't an issue for me, so exotic organic liquids aren't on my menu.  I don't have horses in my yard, either.

But grounds are an issue.  Below is a bunch of tests, one of which may (or may not) be the ground I end up  using... this time.  For a complete test, I'll need to put some varnish on these samples to see the full final effect.

190730.JPG.30d999a4150f7bcb086c4b67833c758e.JPG

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3 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

 If you are interested, i can bring you one of my nitrate/nitrite sauces to cremona at mondomusica (I have also chemically generated water clear solutions wihtout any contamination).

If you are so kind, I would love to try it, even though I don't think I will go through the whole process to make it.:)

But I am always curious to test these things, at least to be able to see their effect  in real life and to be able to compare it with other sample, it is always difficult to draw conclusions just looking at photographs.

To reciprocate I can only show you my violin, I will probably have one finished at that time.

But not to be taken away....:D

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4 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Darkening the wood isn't an issue for me, so exotic organic liquids aren't on my menu.  I don't have horses in my yard, either.

But grounds are an issue.  Below is a bunch of tests, one of which may (or may not) be the ground I end up  using... this time.  For a complete test, I'll need to put some varnish on these samples to see the full final effect.

190730.JPG.30d999a4150f7bcb086c4b67833c758e.JPG

I'd vote for the 7th sample from the left...

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I have a video but haven't uploaded it yet,  Always better to see chatoyancy in a video.  But here's  two still pics at slightly different angles.   The golden color is the results of something that smells of ammonia and probably has nitrates or nitrites in it.  The reddish color on the end is a version of Strad's stain.   I'm still not finalized  on what I'm going to use for my current build.   

ground pics.jpg

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:36 AM, scordatura said:

The origin of this horse s**t and urine is Koen Padding and B&G? Is there a historical written source that they got this approach from? I have the Padding book but am out of town.

See Roger Hargrave's article on making a bass.  He discusses the historical antecedents.

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4 hours ago, MikeC said:

 The reddish color on the end is a version of Strad's stain. 

What do you mean by Strad's stain if you don't mind?

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2 hours ago, scordatura said:

What do you mean by Strad's stain if you don't mind?

The B&G book, there's clues 

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ED38E9FE-6E66-4D58-8C48-CF5717AEB976.thumb.jpeg.c4b97c36fba3b0c639579f618dc5e0d2.jpeg

This is the ground for the current instrument I’m working on.  I’ve since put some varnish on but I snapped an iPhone shot a couple of weeks ago before I started putting on the varnish layers.

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1 hour ago, Matthew Noykos said:

ED38E9FE-6E66-4D58-8C48-CF5717AEB976.thumb.jpeg.c4b97c36fba3b0c639579f618dc5e0d2.jpeg

This is the ground for the current instrument I’m working on.  I’ve since put some varnish on but I snapped an iPhone shot a couple of weeks ago before I started putting on the varnish layers.

Very nice Matthew! What is it? 

 

Also, I didn’t know solacure sold those shorter tubes... where they custom order?

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1 hour ago, finnfinnviolin said:

Very nice Matthew! What is it? 

 

Also, I didn’t know solacure sold those shorter tubes... where they custom order?

Yeah, that's killer. Nice stuff, Matt! I, too, have only been able to find the long solacure tubes. Good stuff, regardless of length. I learned of them here from Joshua Beyer.

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8 hours ago, Matthew Noykos said:

ED38E9FE-6E66-4D58-8C48-CF5717AEB976.thumb.jpeg.c4b97c36fba3b0c639579f618dc5e0d2.jpeg

This is the ground for the current instrument I’m working on.  I’ve since put some varnish on but I snapped an iPhone shot a couple of weeks ago before I started putting on the varnish layers.

that looks good

 

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7 hours ago, finnfinnviolin said:

The strads stain looks like it has burned the flames a little 

A little burning happens on real Strads too sometimes.   I'm struggling to upload a video,  maybe later.  

E,  beans have to stay in the can sometimes  :D

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From my workbench thread: "Look at the STRAD poster and other good photos of the Stradivari Viotti. I recall that the lower treble back has some burnt appearance, not much, but it's there. This tells me that Stradivari went a little beyond the infusion limit."

Sometimes makers try to deify Stradivari for his varnish, but it has flaws just as anything made be a mortal. Nevertheless, his workmanship is excellent.

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20 hours ago, Three13 said:

I'd vote for the 7th sample from the left...

The problems of a single photograph... yes, the contrast is the most extreme in that sample, but the flames are totally burned (straight oil varnish on the wood).  That's also the problem of getting a ground that maximizes contrast while preserving the 3D effect.

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10 hours ago, finnfinnviolin said:

Very nice Matthew! What is it? 

 

Also, I didn’t know solacure sold those shorter tubes... where they custom order?

I don’t think it was custom.  I just ordered a light package directly from Solacure.   I cannot remember the guy’s name but he’s the main brains behind the Solacure line for varnish curing.  He helped me figure out what to get.  This was also a few years ago so I don’t know if they still offer it. They are 2 foot bulbs.  I have 12 of them so I know it might be overkill but it does a great job of tanning.  I can get the same results in 5 days that took me 3 weeks with reptile bulbs.  I also have a bunch of humidity in the box and it’s a sealed system so there is some ozone going on in there too.  I have a fan blowing air through a tube into a bucket with a screen and water and then back into the box.  It cools the air down so it’s not too hot.  It ends up being about 80 to 85 degrees in the box with about 70-75% humidity.  Also the ballasts are installed on the outside of the box and they are mounted on aluminum fins that also dissipate heat.  I would have opted to have the 4 foot bulbs and if you can fit a bigger box I would just do that.  There is only a section in the middle of the bulb which is actually pumping out the UV  so bigger is better.  We had to fit the box in this window ledge so we were limited in space.  Which is why I have to varnish the body of a cello separately from the scroll.

The ground is nothing complicated.  It’s the same stuff a lot of other people use.  Just tanning, oxidizers, and then resins without oil rubbed into the wood.  

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43 minutes ago, Matthew Noykos said:

I don’t think it was custom.  I just ordered a light package directly from Solacure.   I cannot remember the guy’s name but he’s the main brains behind the Solacure line for varnish curing.  He helped me figure out what to get.  This was also a few years ago so I don’t know if they still offer it. They are 2 foot bulbs.  I have 12 of them so I know it might be overkill but it does a great job of tanning.  I can get the same results in 5 days that took me 3 weeks with reptile bulbs.  I also have a bunch of humidity in the box and it’s a sealed system so there is some ozone going on in there too.  I have a fan blowing air through a tube into a bucket with a screen and water and then back into the box.  It cools the air down so it’s not too hot.  It ends up being about 80 to 85 degrees in the box with about 70-75% humidity.  Also the ballasts are installed on the outside of the box and they are mounted on aluminum fins that also dissipate heat.  I would have opted to have the 4 foot bulbs and if you can fit a bigger box I would just do that.  There is only a section in the middle of the bulb which is actually pumping out the UV  so bigger is better.  We had to fit the box in this window ledge so we were limited in space.  Which is why I have to varnish the body of a cello separately from the scroll.

The ground is nothing complicated.  It’s the same stuff a lot of other people use.  Just tanning, oxidizers, and then resins without oil rubbed into the wood.  

Well at any rate, it's a really fabulous look! I think I remember seeing some shots of your cabinet with humidifier on Instagram, and thought "I gotta a do one of those!" I didn't realize it was reaching quite those levels of humidity, which I regard as quite high. Do you have to do anything special to acclimate the instrument to more common temp/humidity states after the curing/tanning? Back in my former shop, tanning in a mylar lined trash can, I could guarantee getting open seams at some point in the process due to the heat and dryness. Not fun when it happens at the button!

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3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Well at any rate, it's a really fabulous look! I think I remember seeing some shots of your cabinet with humidifier on Instagram, and thought "I gotta a do one of those!" I didn't realize it was reaching quite those levels of humidity, which I regard as quite high. Do you have to do anything special to acclimate the instrument to more common temp/humidity states after the curing/tanning? Back in my former shop, tanning in a mylar lined trash can, I could guarantee getting open seams at some point in the process due to the heat and dryness. Not fun when it happens at the button!

I don’t do anything special.  I did have one tiny seam that I just glued.  Up until this point I didn’t have any seams on the few instruments I have varnished in this newer box.  Before I used to have all kinds of seam problems.  I also feel it’s okay to push your instruments a little at this stage because I think the stress can be good for sound.  Just my belief.  

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On 7/30/2019 at 4:35 PM, Davide Sora said:

If you are so kind, I would love to try it, even though I don't think I will go through the whole process to make it.:)

It would be my pleasure, helps me to improve my sauce wich serious critics. But believe me, if you once fall in love with messing around with horse shit... :D 

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On July 28, 2019 at 4:36 PM, scordatura said:

The origin of this horse s**t and urine is Koen Padding and B&G? Is there a historical written source that they got this approach from? I have the Padding book but am out of town.

Roubo is the source of thr recipe.  As noted above, a translation of the recipe is in Roger's bass book. Although he didn't say definitively, Roger did suggest Padding's primer was along the same lines.

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On July 31, 2019 at 3:01 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

From my workbench thread: "Look at the STRAD poster and other good photos of the Stradivari Viotti. I recall that the lower treble back has some burnt appearance, not much, but it's there. This tells me that Stradivari went a little beyond the infusion limit."

Sometimes makers try to deify Stradivari for his varnish, but it has flaws just as anything made be a mortal. Nevertheless, his workmanship is excellent.

One thing to note about the Viotti is the figure on the back is extremely deep. I do agree with Mike there appeares to be burn in. When you look at the section Mike refers to from an angle, however you still get a rich chatoyance affect. To the naked eye It apears that the darkness in the flame comes from clear varnish that soaked in through the ground rather than a coulored stain. Some of the B&G photos show more than what one can observe with the naked eye. It is a remarkable instrument I must have spent an hour looking at it a the RAM when I was last in London. The red colour appears to be in the varnish, thin and intense and laid down over the ground/varnish.

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3 hours ago, Urban Luthier said:

One thing to note about the Viotti is the figure on the back is extremely deep. I do agree with Mike there appeares to be burn in. When you look at the section Mike refers to from an angle, however you still get a rich chatoyance affect. To the naked eye It apears that the darkness in the flame comes from clear varnish that soaked in through the ground rather than a coulored stain. Some of the B&G photos show more than what one can observe with the naked eye. It is a remarkable instrument I must have spent an hour looking at it a the RAM when I was last in London. The red colour appears to be in the varnish, thin and intense and laid down over the ground/varnish.

Colour within varnish can be an influencing factor in how flaming might appear.  However I have also seen colour in flaming in worn areas where coloured varnish no longer exists (e.g., red, orange, crimson hues...).  Colour temperature of the lighting under which an instrument is viewed seems to be a significant player.

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16 hours ago, scordatura said:

How does one define “burn in” and what are the causes?

Burn is the over absorbing of liquids or color into the grain.  It causes unnaturally dark areas under the varnish.  Concentrate your eye on the spot that concerns you.  Move the instrument and observe.  If the appearance of the spot remains the same from a variety of points of view, it is burnt.  If the appearance of the area changes,it is not burnt.

on we go,

Joe

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