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finnfinnviolin

Show your ground!

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13 minutes ago, James M. Jones said:

Pop filler, Horse sauce w, wood ash and cooked rosin varnish applied thin

 

1067538B-E89D-42C2-B5EA-4D578CEB50E3.jpeg

Stunning as well James, how do you make the sauce? Did you apply UV?

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Same as others here, from the Roubo text, some add ash , some not. The only major difference is that I use a nicely sized plant Pot..over a five gallon bucket..to hold the mix, ...instead of the bucket with holes...lol ... nothing fancy with the alcohol, though I Don,t think it would hurt at all, just a triple filter with paper coffee filters and boom ! bobs someone’s uncle. ...I like it for several reasons , mostly it has a complex coloration I find appealing, while still allowing the wood to show.

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8 hours ago, James M. Jones said:

Same as others here, from the Rubio text, some add ash , some not. The only major difference is that I use a nicely sized plant Pot..over a five gallon bucket..to hold the mix, ...instead of the bucket with holes...lol ... nothing fancy with the alcohol, though I Don,t think it would hurt at all, just a triple filter with paper coffee filters and boom ! bobs someone’s uncle. ...I like it for several reasons , mostly it has a complex coloration I find appealing, while still allowing the wood to show.

Ok thanks James, i think it's time to see a man about a horse ...:D

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On 7/26/2019 at 2:00 PM, finnfinnviolin said:

@James M. Jones

 

are the black in the pores from the horse juice? I too have had that issue if I don’t dilute enough. 

 

1part stink juice to 5 parts water seems to work well, and then multiple coats until you reach the desired colour 

I,d say most likely , and yes diluted with water helps. 

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The origin of this horse s**t and urine is Koen Padding and B&G? Is there a historical written source that they got this approach from? I have the Padding book but am out of town.

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1 hour ago, scordatura said:

The origin of this horse s**t and urine is Koen Padding and B&G? Is there a historical written source that they got this approach from? I have the Padding book but am out of town.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 7:35 PM, James M. Jones said:

 from the Rubio text, 

Yes...don,t know the text dates.or location to cite, but. ....it,s out there...maybe this guy? Andre' Jacob Roubo? 

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So heard from a someone who knew koen very well, that he only did the horse manure and urine to show that it could be done in Stradivarius time, 

 

but his products where made with commercial chemicals. 

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24 minutes ago, finnfinnviolin said:

So heard from a someone who knew koen very well, that he only did the horse manure and urine to show that it could be done in Stradivarius time, 

 

but his products where made with commercial chemicals. 

Unless there are some essential chemicals in the poo and urine, I would think that using nitrites and nitrates as chemicals would be the way to go. Better control.

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54 minutes ago, finnfinnviolin said:

So heard from a someone who knew koen very well, that he only did the horse manure and urine to show that it could be done in Stradivarius time, 

 

but his products where made with commercial chemicals. 

Talking to a couple of makers who used Padding's product (one of them knew him directly), they claimed that it was probably just sodium nitrite and nothing more.

I was rather disappointed, but having never used his product I could neither confirm nor deny it.....

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1 hour ago, scordatura said:

Unless there are some essential chemicals in the poo and urine, I would think that using nitrites and nitrates as chemicals would be the way to go. Better control.

Doing A/B testing on the same pieces of wood (spruce and maple) using sodium nitrite and horsie sauce made exactly the way Mike Jones makes his B), I found the P & P sauce to have a more complex color and was easier to control than the SN.  I think it's easier to go too far with SN.  The last instrument I liked the SN slightly better than the P & P sauce.  The current one may be the other way around.  It's up to the wood and the varnish (ever changing) that will determine which solution will best lead me to the look that I'm going for.  

-Jim

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36 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

KNO3 works for me. Smells much better than the alternative, in the bargain

Jackson (or others) any ideas/reasons for potassium vs sodium nitrate? Do you seal before stain?

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Just now, scordatura said:

Jackson any ideas/reasons for potassium vs sodium nitrate? Do you seal before stain?

I had it leftover from making black powder, haha! What I've done in the past is mix a 5% solution of KNO3 in deionized water, put it in a small atomizer, and spritz the violin periodically during the tanning phase. So maybe every hour or two, when I remember, that I'm in the shop - in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 times a day during a 2 week tan. I've never seen it go gray, just gold. I do this before anything else goes in/on the wood. 

That said, when I get back to making (hopefully soon???) I'm planning to try something different and will post about it if I like it. 

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KNO3 alone takes a lot longer than if you add KNO2. I usually need about 24 hours of tanning do get a nice,  golden brown color with only 1 application. I would not recommend to use too much of KNO3 because it may have negative long term effects on the wood stability.

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12 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

KNO3 alone takes a lot longer than if you add KNO2. I usually need about 24 hours of tanning do get a nice,  golden brown color with only 1 application. I would not recommend to use too much of KNO3 because it may have negative long term effects on the wood stability.

Good to know. I'm not concerned about the stability, considering the total amount used on a violin the way I've been doing it is mere miligrams, but I am intrigued by your suggestion for speeding things up. Thanks!

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23 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

KNO3 alone takes a lot longer than if you add KNO2. I usually need about 24 hours of tanning do get a nice,  golden brown color with only 1 application. I would not recommend to use too much of KNO3 because it may have negative long term effects on the wood stability. 

Do you have an explanation of why this difference? I would be led to think that KNO3, forming nitric acid, should have more oxidizing power and therefore with a faster action.  KNO2, forming nitrous acid, should be less aggressive and therefore slower. But I've never tried KNO3 and I don't have a term of comparison.

I'm sure there's an explanation, but my mind would be lost in the chemical formulas of reactions.:unsure:

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On 7/23/2019 at 10:06 AM, Michael Szyper said:

Thats my procedure...

Thanks for that! Excuse the silly questions - I’m ignorant about this topic, having only bought pre-made varnish. But it would be fun to make a Ground. 

- Correct me if I’m wrong, but your first solution is basically a ‘stain' to color the wood, while the second solution is more of a ‘Ground' to seal it, as ash is added to this solution? Is that correct? 
- how long does this solution keep before you need to use it? 
- Would Cow crap be as good as horse crap and human urine adequate as well? 
- I have heard of a Sugar Ground. Does anyone have a recipe for that?
- Is shellac ok to use as a Ground?
- Is hide glue ok as a Ground, and if so at what water ratio / concentration?
- Has anyone used Coffee or other commonly found substances here as a stain?

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42 minutes ago, Guy Booth said:

Thanks for that! Excuse the silly questions - I’m ignorant about this topic, having only bought pre-made varnish. But it would be fun to make a Ground. 

- Correct me if I’m wrong, but your first solution is basically a ‘stain' to color the wood, while the second solution is more of a ‘Ground' to seal it, as ash is added to this solution? Is that correct? 
- how long does this solution keep before you need to use it? 
- Would Cow crap be as good as horse crap and human urine adequate as well? 
- I have heard of a Sugar Ground. Does anyone have a recipe for that?
- Is shellac ok to use as a Ground?
- Is hide glue ok as a Ground, and if so at what water ratio / concentration?
- Has anyone used Coffee or other commonly found substances here as a stain?

With this many questions you should start a new thread.  Here's an old one that will serve as a primer (pun intended).  https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/338786-the-purpose-of-ground/

 

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On 7/28/2019 at 10:55 PM, Davide Sora said:

Do you have an explanation of why this difference? I would be led to think that KNO3, forming nitric acid, should have more oxidizing power and therefore with a faster action.  KNO2, forming nitrous acid, should be less aggressive and therefore slower. But I've never tried KNO3 and I don't have a term of comparison.

I'm sure there's an explanation, but my mind would be lost in the chemical formulas of reactions.:unsure:

Generally there is no relevan transformation to the corresponding acids. There is more an equilibrium between Calcium-, Sodium-, and Potassium nitrites and nitrates. Generally you are quite right about the higher oxidizing power of the KNO3, but the coloration effect is due to a combination of oxidation and reduction of different elements. (In meat it is easily the myoglobine, in wood this should be a lot more difficult).

Therefore a combination of nitrites and nitrates can simultaneously act on different reactions and speed up things quite well. If you are interested, i can bring you one of my nitrate/nitrite sauces to cremona at mondomusica (I have also chemically generated water clear solutions wihtout any contamination).

Usually the wood coloration is faster in sodium nitrate, which makes a less interesting color IMHO.

18 hours ago, Guy Booth said:

Thanks for that! Excuse the silly questions - I’m ignorant about this topic, having only bought pre-made varnish. But it would be fun to make a Ground. 

- Correct me if I’m wrong, but your first solution is basically a ‘stain' to color the wood, while the second solution is more of a ‘Ground' to seal it, as ash is added to this solution? Is that correct? 
- how long does this solution keep before you need to use it? 
- Would Cow crap be as good as horse crap and human urine adequate as well? 
- I have heard of a Sugar Ground. Does anyone have a recipe for that?
- Is shellac ok to use as a Ground?
- Is hide glue ok as a Ground, and if so at what water ratio / concentration?
- Has anyone used Coffee or other commonly found substances here as a stain?

- you are partially right, but i think you should re-read both posts about the ingredients and the chemistry. There is a lot more going on in the first solution besides the staining (which i also like)

- the ready solution has to be used within a year or two, the fresher the better. The fermentation process may take up to 1-2 years, depending on different factors

- cow crap is chemically pretty different and has less potential of forming nitrates/nitrites, so i don't recommend it at all. Human urin may work, but you can use ammonia instead

- sugar ground hygroscopic and changes its properties very strongly only after a few % change in humidity lev.

- shellac is colorless, historically not matching, but absolutely ok

- i don't use hide glue  because it has too little reflectivity (is there such a word?) and may take up some moisture and water

- coffee, tea etc. is widely used. try it!

 

Michael

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On 7/28/2019 at 6:03 PM, finnfinnviolin said:

So heard from a someone who knew koen very well, that he only did the horse manure and urine to show that it could be done in Stradivarius time, 

 

but his products where made with commercial chemicals. 

me too.

probably from the same person.

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23 hours ago, Luis Martins said:

Anyone got stopped at airport security after applying ground?!?:P

Some years ago In Frankfurt I had one of my violas tested for ..... explosives....   The agent rubbed something in the varnish and put it in a machine.... I was scared!!!!

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