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finnfinnviolin

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That was indoor florescent light with secondary light coming in from a north facing window.  No burning of flames,   That sample is long gone in the scrap pile,  I need to do more and on spruce.  

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On 7/21/2019 at 10:01 AM, Michael Szyper said:

Unfortunately I varnished this piece already. But here is another sample - it appears more yellow and cooler because of almost no uv tanning of the wood.

1065E3B3-6DE6-4272-8AA9-C9CC5B9D1668.jpeg

I like that

 

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6 hours ago, MikeC said:

Amazing how different people can read Brandmair Greiner and come up with completely different substances to match the findings.  

I like when someone starts a thread on this subject matter.

Here's mine from a few years ago,  resting on laurels.. translation.. too lazy to do a new version.  :D

Everything looks good on curly maple,  you should all post your ground on spruce. 

 

ground.jpg

Agree - how do our interpretations of B/G differ? I know that there is no indication they used a horse manure ground but rather a water soluble stain (so the approach of @Michael_Molnar fits a lot better) but i simply like the wood hardening effect. At the moment i am working on an additional, light wood stain, which is needed to get the look right IMHO)

Here is a picture of the spruce, also too little uv tanning after horse ground, therefore it looks too cold:

 

414656AE-3636-40EC-8322-6F9BAA1F2F0E.jpeg

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On 7/21/2019 at 6:17 PM, finnfinnviolin said:

Seems to bring out the complexities of the maple figure. Is you horse shit mix rabbit urine, wood ashes and dung? 

Generally yes (more often i use the horse urine ‘contamination’ of the manure and sometimes add a little bit of ammonia), but i separate this solution into two parts and add the filtered potash only to one of the solutions. I assume that this is what Koen Padding did. At least this would fit his analyses and it’s increasing the wood hardening effect.

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I see, I have been experimenting with the horse/rabbit concoction for quite some time now, and I haven’t experienced the results I would like. Not like AD’s ground, and not like yours. Too much grey, and not enough warmth to the colour.

 

are you separating the one with and without potash and then applying them separately? Or mix them back together? 

If you are willing to describe your whole process I would greatly appreciate it. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Generally yes (more often i use the horse urine ‘contamination’ of the manure and sometimes add a little bit of ammonia), but i separate this solution into two parts and add the filtered potash only to one of the solutions. I assume that this is what Koen Padding did. At least this would fit his analyses and it’s increasing the wood hardening effect.

 

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5 hours ago, finnfinnviolin said:

I see, I have been experimenting with the horse/rabbit concoction for quite some time now, and I haven’t experienced the results I would like. Not like AD’s ground, and not like yours. Too much grey, and not enough warmth to the colour.

 

are you separating the one with and without potash and then applying them separately? Or mix them back together? 

If you are willing to describe your whole process I would greatly appreciate it. 

 

 

 

Sure, here we go.

My latest approach is the following: I take two buckets, one with a perforated bottom containing mainly horse manure, straw and a little bit of ashes. Then i follow the known Roubo procedure: I wait, until it rots and starts to drip into the lower bucket. After it startet getting fluid you can add a bit urine or ammonia. Leaving the bucket outside in the rain is also a good method, because it keeps it moist, dripping but not wet. After a considerable volume of about 10-%20% per weight of the horse manure dripped into the lower bucket, i recycle the whole fluid: Fill it again in the upper bucket until the volume was filtered again through the manure.

I once did it like @Advocatus Diaboli  wrote in his thread, this is also a fantastic method - i did it once and could not notice any different result if you know how long to keep it fermenting.

Here the part begins which generated a lot of trouble: When do i have to stop recycling and use the fluid? The answer is very simple, stop when Nitrate and Nitrite is forming. I bought a aquarium test strip with an indicator. After i did it a few times, you get the feel, when the sauce is ready.

After that, i boil it and keep the foam. While boiling, i take half of it out and dilute it to the desired strength. This would be the solution 1.

The second solution is boiled heavy with about 10 % per weight of the manure we started (so it has fractionally too much ashes). Then again, it is filtered, diluted with a bit of alcohol and stored. This would be solution 2.

 

I put solution 1 two times on the violin and put it into the uv chamber. After 12 hours, I apply solution 2 (also 2 times) and leave it in the uv for 20-40 hours, depending on the desired color.

 

Thats my procedure. I will add a small text about the chemistry behind it later...

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4 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Thats my procedure. I will add a small text about the chemistry behind it later... 

Fascinating! I would be very interested in the mechanisms behind this, so what the nitrite, ammonia etc. do. Besides coloring it also hardens the wood surface?

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34 minutes ago, Emilg said:

Fascinating! I would be very interested in the mechanisms behind this, so what the nitrite, ammonia etc. do. Besides coloring it also hardens the wood surface?

Me too.:)

I think that the main action responsible for coloring is due to the oxidation caused by the Nitric and Nitrous acids formed by Nitrate and Nitrite respectively. But chemistry is mysterious to me so I'm always interested in hearing explanations from those who have the knowledge.

Here an interesting discussion on the subject,  in particular the posts by Joe Wiese :

 
I also don't know anything about the hardening mechanism mentioned by Michael Szyper and I don't even know if it's effective, I would be very interested in learning more.

 

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Hi guys, here is part two:

Before i go into my theories a further addition for @finnfinnviolin : If you want the ground to be more yellow, start with a very thin wash of Calcium-casein. This changes the darkening from a grayish-brown to a more yellow-golden tone. The more Ca-casein, the more yellow it gets.

 

Here are my thoughts about what I do:

1. Nitrates and nitrites induce several redox processes, but the main result is oxidation of wood material and wood resins (which is the reason why summer-cut spruce can go pinkish when treated with Nitrates or Nitrites.

2. I think there is a minor wood hardening effect due to the oxidation described above. The stronger effect is IMHO because of the separation of the solutions. Let’s look at a few ingredients: 

Solution 1: Mainly Calcium nitrate and Calcium nitrite + a few remnants of Na/KNO2/3 (=nitrite/nitrate)

Solution 2: Due to the large amount of potash the Ca(NO2)2/Ca(NO3)3 and the potash  (K2CO3) is reacted to CaCO3 (calcite) and KNO2/KNO3

The equation with nitrates: Ca(NO3)2 + K2CO3 -> 2KNO3 + CaCO3

Here is the trick about my solution: If you apply the solution 1 and solution 2 (with an potash excess) separately, part of the Calciumnitrate -> Calcite reaction takes place in the wood pores, where they MAY fill the empty spaces with calcite leading to a wood hardening. The other effect is a gloss enhancement of the ground because of the calcite’s refraction index. 

DISCLAIMER: I am not a chemist and this is only my theory which i developed after looking at the analyses of Koen Padding’s ground. I observe a slightly higher gloss and higher wood stiffness (mainly across the grain) in my samples compared between solution 1 and solution 2 VS solution 2 only. But this might also be due to other effects than what i described above.

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4 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

1. Nitrates and nitrites induce several redox processes, but the main result is oxidation of wood material and wood resins (which is the reason why summer-cut spruce can go pinkish when treated with Nitrates or Nitrites.

2. I think there is a minor wood hardening effect due to the oxidation described above. The stronger effect is IMHO because of the separation of the solutions. Let’s look at a few ingredients: 

Solution 1: Mainly Calcium nitrate and Calcium nitrite + a few remnants of Na/KNO2/3 (=nitrite/nitrate)

Solution 2: Due to the large amount of potash the Ca(NO2)2/Ca(NO3)3 and the potash  (K2CO3) is reacted to CaCO3 (calcite) and KNO2/KNO3

 

Thanks Michael, what would the manure/urine do differently than sodium/calcium nitrite solutions?

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3 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Here are my thoughts about what I do:

........

Thanks Michael, I'm not a chemist too but what you say make sense

I suppose the Calcium you are talking about is naturally contained in manure, am I right?

Did you do chemical analysis of manure?

The resuting Calcite is quite interesting.

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5 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

start with a very thin wash of Calcium-casein

Interesting! I will try this for sure! 

 

What produces the yellow? Is it reactionary?  

 

Is that the same as calcium caseinate? A quick google led me to some protein powder for body building. Is that what you are using? Or is yours something else? 

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3 hours ago, Emilg said:

Thanks Michael, what would the manure/urine do differently than sodium/calcium nitrite solutions?

1. Calcium nitrite and Calcium nitrate won’t induce almost any wood coloration under uv. Maybe it leads to some positive wood stiffening, but at this moment this is simply speculation, i have to do more research about it.

2. The pure sodium nitrite solutions have a few different disadvantages:

- the risk for the belly going pinkish is a lot higher

- the color gets too yellow if you strive for a more or less Italian looking ground (the colors are generally more faded)

- there is a lot of amorphous, organic stuff in my manure preparation which induces a pore occlusion, after a few coats it doesn’t take any water and is pretty much mud-resistant

- the result is a lot less predictive compared to one of my batches (but my results vary from batch to batch)

 

2 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Thanks Michael, I'm not a chemist too but what you say make sense

 I suppose the Calcium you are talking about is naturally contained in manure, am I right?

Did you do chemical analysis of manure?

 The resuting Calcite is quite interest

My pleasure, Davide. 

Yes, the Calcium is naturally quite concentrated in the manure.

Yes, i did a chemical analysis once of the manure i get from my supplier (if you would have told me a decade ago that i would have a horse shit supplier... ;) ) 

12 minutes ago, finnfinnviolin said:

What produces the yellow? Is it reactionary?  

 

I have no idea yet, just the observation - sorry.

 

13 minutes ago, finnfinnviolin said:

Is that the same as calcium caseinate? A quick google led me to some protein powder for body building. Is that what you are using? Or is yours something else?

I would not recommend this body building powder at all. You have to prepare the calcium caseinate as fresh as possible. If you want to work with a powder, take the casein from Kremer (63200). You have to soak it in water over night (as hide glue) and then mix is 3:1 weight parts with pit lime.

I have tried Ammonium-casein without the desired yellowing results.

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9 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

1. Calcium nitrite and Calcium nitrate won’t induce almost any wood coloration under uv. Maybe it leads to some positive wood stiffening, but at this moment this is simply speculation, i have to do more research about it.

2. The pure sodium nitrite solutions have a few different disadvantages:

- the risk for the belly going pinkish is a lot higher

- the color gets too yellow if you strive for a more or less Italian looking ground (the colors are generally more faded)

- there is a lot of amorphous, organic stuff in my manure preparation which induces a pore occlusion, after a few coats it doesn’t take any water and is pretty much mud-resistant

- the result is a lot less predictive compared to one of my batches (but my results vary from batch to batch)

 

My pleasure, Davide. 

Yes, the Calcium is naturally quite concentrated in the manure.

Yes, i did a chemical analysis once of the manure i get from my supplier (if you would have told me a decade ago that i would have a horse shit supplier... ;) ) 

I have no idea yet, just the observation - sorry.

 

I would not recommend this body building powder at all. You have to prepare the calcium caseinate as fresh as possible. If you want to work with a powder, take the casein from Kremer (63200). You have to soak it in water over night (as hide glue) and then mix is 3:1 weight parts with pit lime.

I have tried Ammonium-casein without the desired yellowing results.

Or go to the super market and eat the rest, like I do :)

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1 hour ago, finnfinnviolin said:

Bravo! Particularly the end grain 

Thanks.  This sample is engelman freshly planed and filed (end grain) with no wood treatment. 

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11 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

I think its pretty pointless trying to figure out whats going on with horse manure /urine on wood.Theres probably around several hundred different reactions going on:)

well, one must have some ideas before putting dung on a lovely white violin :rolleyes:

sofar i understand that the main purposes are:

- coloring with UV is more authentic than using plain chemicals

- there is some porefilling which together with calcification may stiffen the plate somewhat

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24 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

What about the E-Coli effect etc....:D

i guess a few thick layers of varnish will cover that ^_^

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Balsam Ground + Aged Wood Color Gold.  Aged wood color Gray Green added on the outline.  Looking at these pictures I don't see the sparkle of real light...I know "get a better camera".....

on we go,

Joe

bgspruce.jpg

bg maple.jpg

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