Old violin, unique F- holes. Rubbish?

[PhilipKT]

Again, this belongs to a friend. Posting at her request. I’ll get more pictures tomorrow.

Yes, that’s a sound post crack on the back.

what do y’all think?

[Andreas Preuss]

What is the material of the purfling blacks? 

How is the interior made? Materials? and are the C linings inserted in the corner blocks?er

Is the joint on the back button in the center of the button?

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, Andreas Preuss said:

What is the material of the purfling blacks? 

How is the interior made? Materials? and are the C linings inserted in the corner blocks?er

Is the joint on the back button in the center of the button?

I’ll find out

[ClefLover]

4 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

 

Is the joint on the back button in the center of the button?

The other questions make sense to me, but what might this question indicate?

[Andreas Preuss]

35 minutes ago, ClefLover said:

The other questions make sense to me, but what might this question indicate?

There are different ways to set the neck. 19th French makers for example set the neck to the center line of the top but gave the neck root a slight tilt to elevate the E string side. as a result the position of the button would shift a pinch to the treble (left) side.

(photo taken from 'Les tresors de la Lutherie, p49, violin by J.B. Vuillaume)

[Andreas Preuss]

34 minutes ago, ClefLover said:

The other questions make sense to me, but what might this question indicate?

Actually, another question would be at which precision the joint of the back is in the center. Makers in the Voigtland region used a method where it falls with basically zero tolerance in the center. On French fiddles there is often enough a difference of up to 0.5mm measuring left and right.

[martin swan]

Looks a bit like Thir, so maybe late 18th century Vienna form its outward appearance.

Inner work and the bottom rib construction would give more clues ...

 

[Blank face]

Could be well something older being stripped to the ground and revarnished at some point. There are remains of a dark varnish visible at a very few points, bridge region, corners or inner scroll windings for example. If the scoll is grafted the button was probably reshaped, so this feature doesn't tell much in the actual state.

Not sure about Thir, I would expect the ribs to be higher. A bit odd that the edges are so well preserved, so I would rather assume a 19th century origin.

As was written before, we would need more informations reg. inside work (form of the corner blocks, linings morticed and which wood), a view of the end pin rib region and front/rear view of the scroll, close up of the rib corners. LOB and rib height.

[Blank face]

There was a very similar violin some time ago in Ebay which we discussed, had a bottom post crack, too, and offered by a certain Viennese dealer. Wondering if the owner bought it from there?

[martin swan]

10 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Could be well something older being stripped to the ground and revarnished at some point. There are remains of a dark varnish visible at a very few points, bridge region, corners or inner scroll windings for example.

Agree that it's probably revarnished ...

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

 

As was written before, we would need more informations reg. inside work (form of the corner blocks, linings morticed and which wood), a view of the end pin rib region and front/rear view of the scroll, close up of the rib corners. LOB and rib height.

Also if the back joint is reinforced with a strip of paper (or parchment), how far apart (in mm) are the two upper lobes of the ff, rib height (in mm). if the two flutes of the scroll merge into one by the throat?

[Ratcliffiddles]

Can't see much evidence of re-varnishing.  I am thinking early 19th century rather than 18th.

 

[Blank face]

Maybe I'm a bit paranoid about revarnishing due to the lots of discussions. There are some stains of a brown colour in front of the bridge, the upper and inner scroll windings and at the purfling tips of the belly. But could be some dirt also, hard to tell. Agree with rather 19th than 18th century.

[deans]

At what point is an instrument officially deemed "revarnished"? I always thought there was a lot of gray area here, that often swings dramatically one way or the other depending on which side of the counter you stand.

[martin swan]

I suppose for me the question would be whether the original varnish was stripped or washed off, in which case an instrument would be described as revarnished. "Over-varnished" and "heavily retouched" have slightly different meanings ...

It's possible that this varnish has simply lost a lot of colour, in which case you might describe it as "washed out" ...

[Andreas Preuss]

A Thir with so long f-holes? Can't remember that any member of the family made such long f-holes. From the top of my head I'd rather think in the direction of Sebastian Dalinger. 

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

A Thir with so long f-holes? Can't remember that any member of the family made such long f-holes. From the top of my head I'd rather think in the direction of Sebastian Dalinger. 

Johann Georg Thir

(varnish probably not original ....)

Not saying there's much similarity, just discussing f-hole length.

 

[Andreas Preuss]

3 hours ago, martin swan said:

Johann Georg Thir

(varnish probably not original ....)

Not saying there's much similarity, just discussing f-hole length.

 

Ok,. 

which Thir is it? 

[jacobsaunders]

6 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Ok,. 

which Thir is it? 

Johann Georg

[jezzupe]

There seems to be something funny with the photography in that what seems to be wrong is the overly shiny reflective sheen, but what's making me go "hmm" is that the fingerboard is beaming "wet" looking too as if it was slathered in some type of polishing oil prior to the photo being taken. I just find it odd that the fingerboard seems as wet and reflective as the body where the light is hitting it.

[luthier]

It could be a non ebony fingerboard that has been blackened and varnished.

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

There seems to be something funny with the photography in that what seems to be wrong is the overly shiny reflective sheen, but what's making me go "hmm" is that the fingerboard is beaming "wet" looking too as if it was slathered in some type of polishing oil prior to the photo being taken. I just find it odd that the fingerboard seems as wet and reflective as the body where the light is hitting it.

It is possible that the owner of the violin did something to the violin before his daughter acquired it, but I promise that the photograph was taken in her living room and we didn’t do anything special to it.

[martin swan]

just looks like flare on a heavily polished fingerboard to me ....

[PhilipKT]

More pictures! I couldn’t get a good look inside, but I hope the purfling photos are revealing. The Black from the strips seems to have leached into the surrounding wood.

Is the neck graft a particular style?

thanks for any additional insight!

 

 

[PhilipKT]

And one more