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Composite old violin ID


Josep J. Ruiz
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1 hour ago, Rue said:

I can't add info with regards to your your violin, but I can say nice playing! :)

The violin, whatever it may be, looks great and sounds well.

Are you pleased with it?

Many thanks! Yes, I'm very pleased to play it. I know this is not a master work but I found this sound very deep and powerful, the most important think when you play music. 

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1 hour ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

Ooook. Yep, I used this old thread instead open a new one. Any suggestion even if is only temptative with the new photos or I can assume is impossible to know more about my violin? Regards. 

I think that all one can know about the violin is that it started out life in Mittenwald 1800ish and has since had a new belly and a “brick”. The old belly is irretrievably gone, and the brick is exceptionally difficult to restore so that it doesn’t stand out like a sore thumb and wouldn’t be worth doing on a fiddle that has a replacement belly. I have thought of starting a new thread on bricks, since I will have to do one somehow in the near future.

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1 hour ago, Violinjon said:

Sounds nice and nice playing! I can't contribute anything about that violin other than that you already have some real experts commenting on it previously. I will note as a player, though, that the F on the first beat of bar 7 should be F natural, not F sharp :)

 

Thanks. You are right! That means I need to check the score before play just in case my memory failed during the study :P 

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think that all one can know about the violin is that it started out life in Mittenwald 1800ish and has since had a new belly and a “brick”. The old belly is irretrievably gone, and the brick is exceptionally difficult to restore so that it doesn’t stand out like a sore thumb and wouldn’t be worth doing on a fiddle that has a replacement belly. I have thought of starting a new thread on bricks, since I will have to do one somehow in the near future.

Many thanks for the answer! Yes, seems the violin suffered a very traumatic accident and the maker tought the original belly has to many cracks to be restored, and made a new one (I don't think is taken from another violin). Obviously this fact reduce the value of the violin but perhaps it keep the good sound due to this replacing. Is the approximate age of the belly possible to know? The f holes remember me some Mittenwald violin from 1830 but I can be wrong...

When you decide to publish about the 'bricks' fell free to copy my photos in case you consider they could be useful to your purposes. I guess this kind of old restorations reduce so much the value of the violin but contrary can be useful to know how the old makers restored the violins. Anyway to me the most important think is not the economic value (I paid about 550 euros for the instrument by the way) but the pleasure to play it. 

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On 12/28/2020 at 9:20 AM, Violinjon said:

Sounds nice and nice playing! I can't contribute anything about that violin other than that you already have some real experts commenting on it previously. I will note as a player, though, that the F on the first beat of bar 7 should be F natural, not F sharp :)

 

:huh:

^_^

...and that is exactly why I will not play in a video...

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3 hours ago, Garth E. said:

Best to you too Josep. Thanks for the wonderful music.

You're welcome. I'm not a graduate violinist but a classical music lover. Best regards. 

1 hour ago, Rue said:

:huh:

^_^

...and that is exactly why I will not play in a video...

So I recommend you do it even if you mistake some note. Especially if you mistake some note. 

1 hour ago, mathieu valde said:

Very metallic sound on record , can not accept that. 

I'm sure you speak from experience and knowledge. Please, show us your own Bach performing made with your phone to know how is the acceptable way. 

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7 hours ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

I'm sure you speak from experience and knowledge. Please, show us your own Bach performing made with your phone to know how is the acceptable way. 

 

I did not even started to talk about the perfoming "qualities" and skills, it is not not a serious reason and it will be too long to discuss, somebody already mentioned mistakes. I just repeat - tone is very metallic, something is wrong with instrument or playing technique or both.I have seen many videos made with phones, sound recording quality always quite adequate. I have seen some instruments with "brick" repair and all of them sounded quite bad. I strictly avoid those instruments, hope Jacob can explain good and "easy" method to restore. 

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13 hours ago, mathieu valde said:

I did not even started to talk about the perfoming "qualities" and skills, it is not not a serious reason and it will be too long to discuss, somebody already mentioned mistakes. I just repeat - tone is very metallic, something is wrong with instrument or playing technique or both.I have seen many videos made with phones, sound recording quality always quite adequate. I have seen some instruments with "brick" repair and all of them sounded quite bad. I strictly avoid those instruments, hope Jacob can explain good and "easy" method to restore. 

Well, someone mentioned not exactly mistakes (in plural). Someone mentioned I played a single note which is not in the original score (I have to agree with that because is a fact). This person mentioned also the sound is very good, and every person that heard the violin, in video or personally. The problem with this violin is not the sound, which is deep and powerful, but the loss of value due the ''brick'' you mentioned and later belly. A pity in case I wanted to gain lots of money with it but not so much important concerning the sound in this case. There are much more rellevant imperfections which changes the sound of the instrument, for example a crack in the harmonic bar zone. The ''brick'' is ugly but I don't think that changes the sound enough to appreciate it in a simple video. In fact Jacob told previously about how ''easy'' is to restore the ''bricks'' and I perfectly know it don't worth in this case. See the previous comments. 

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59 minutes ago, mathieu valde said:

I have seen some instruments with "brick" repair and all of them sounded quite bad.

A brick repair is a violation of the esthetical integrity of an antique instrument and a devaluation, but it's very unlikely that it has a noticeable impact on sound IMO. This can't be proven or falsified by random anecdotal evidence.

There were also discussions about the traps of recording, and if they are representative for the "real" sound impression of an instrument (they aren't), for example in the Fingerboard. Otherwise we have the nice expression "Beckmesserei" for certain ways of critizising.:)

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23 minutes ago, Blank face said:

A brick repair is a violation of the esthetical integrity of an antique instrument and a devaluation, but it's very unlikely that it has a noticeable impact on sound IMO. This can't be proven or falsified by random anecdotal evidence.

I opine the same. Before play this violin II played during some time another violin posted on this forum, one early 1800's likely from Salzkammergut, without a brick but with some restored soundbox cracks. After play both of them I decided to keep only the current one because to me was obvious it sounds much more better and because the making is in general much more accurate despite the unfortunate old restoration. I purchased about 500 euros for this instrument and another 500 the revarnishing of the back and setup. I will not spend money in the restoration of the ''brick'' because I don't have a master piece of violin making in my hands but I'm satisfied with the violin at all. I think is a curious instrument with a curious history and good sound. I'm glad with it. 

 

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16 hours ago, Rue said:

:huh:

^_^

...and that is exactly why I will not play in a video...

I meant it in the spirit of continually improving oneself! Certainly not in whatever critical spirit is possessing certain others today. I suppose I should have been more tactful and sent a PM instead. I certainly don't want to discourage others from posting their own videos!

The OP says he is an amateur violinist, and he plays very well for one. Although the quality of the video is not so good it's enough to tell that the violin is working well for the player, and that's what matters when considering violins in this (very low) price range.

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1 hour ago, Violinjon said:

I meant it in the spirit of continually improving oneself! Certainly not in whatever critical spirit is possessing certain others today. I suppose I should have been more tactful and sent a PM instead. I certainly don't want to discourage others from posting their own videos!

The OP says he is an amateur violinist, and he plays very well for one. Although the quality of the video is not so good it's enough to tell that the violin is working well for the player, and that's what matters when considering violins in this (very low) price range.

Agreed. Perhaps if we had another cell phone video of a “nonmetallic” sounding violin from a true pro everyone would have something to compare....thanks for posting your video Josep J Ruiz 

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2 hours ago, mathieu valde said:

It is very nice you keep telling us how happy you are with your playing and your revarnished instruments. 

Whatever is said should be said humbly. No necessary to be a violin expert to know that ;) 

2 hours ago, Violinjon said:

I meant it in the spirit of continually improving oneself! Certainly not in whatever critical spirit is possessing certain others today. I suppose I should have been more tactful and sent a PM instead. I certainly don't want to discourage others from posting their own videos!

The OP says he is an amateur violinist, and he plays very well for one. Although the quality of the video is not so good it's enough to tell that the violin is working well for the player, and that's what matters when considering violins in this (very low) price range.

No worries. I understood perfectly your intention and the answer to your message. Of course I wil try to improve myself with my performings...and remember better every note :P 

1 hour ago, Jwillis said:

Agreed. Perhaps if we had another cell phone video of a “nonmetallic” sounding violin from a true pro everyone would have something to compare....thanks for posting your video Josep J Ruiz 

You're welcome! 

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18 hours ago, Josep J. Ruiz said:

... 

So I recommend you do it even if you mistake some note. Especially if you mistake some note. 

...

I did get brave and submit a video to my teacher's YouTube Christmas recital. But...that audience is small...and mostly comprised of 5 year olds. ^_^ However, I  was very pleased to see an older couple, both beginners, had also contributed! 

 

3 hours ago, Violinjon said:

I meant it in the spirit of continually improving oneself! Certainly not in whatever critical spirit is possessing certain others today. ...

Yes. I understand that. However, the point of the video was to reflect on the playability of the violin...

I am an intermediate player...with on-going technical issues :angry:. Last thing I would need is for someone to focus on my mistakes. I know very well what those mistakes are. My low self-esteem doesn't need some else to confirm them. :mellow:

Good thing Josep is made of sterner stuff. ^_^

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19 hours ago, mathieu valde said:

Very metallic sound on record , can not accept that. 

Again...the question wasn't about recording quality...

And yes...I  would also like to see you "do better" in that regard.

Start another thread...post a video of yourself playing something...and if you like we can comment on what we think the sound quality is. :)

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1 hour ago, Spelman said:

As a teacher, I would be very pleased with a student who recognizes their deficits but is overall happy with where they are at the moment.

I should remind you about title of that post: Composite old violin ID

I do not think we should not welcome posts where title is asking about violin ID, but later we see posts of non profesional (sorry) videos of mediocre quality. Those who want to learn about ID, are not always happy to mix those things. There are many forums on internet where such thing can result even banishment from particular forum. I suppose on MN you can find more appropriate place to post selfies and videos, I am sure there are people who will welcome that.

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14 minutes ago, mathieu valde said:

I should remind you about title of that post: Composite old violin ID

I do not think we should not welcome posts where title is asking about violin ID, but later we see posts of non profesional (sorry) videos of mediocre quality. Those who want to learn about ID, are not always happy to mix those things. There are many forums on internet where such thing can result even banishment from particular forum. I suppose on MN you can find more appropriate place to post selfies and videos, I am sure there are people who will welcome that.

I don’t think one needs to be so miserable about it. Threads on Maestronet often go off at a tangent, and anybody interested in instrument ID is used to, and long since immune to, inane questions about “how it sounds”

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27 minutes ago, mathieu valde said:

I should remind you about title of that post: Composite old violin ID

I do not think we should not welcome posts where title is asking about violin ID, but later we see posts of non profesional (sorry) videos of mediocre quality. Those who want to learn about ID, are not always happy to mix those things. There are many forums on internet where such thing can result even banishment from particular forum. I suppose on MN you can find more appropriate place to post selfies and videos, I am sure there are people who will welcome that.

I really don't see how extra information infringes on the value of information regarding the ID of the violin. An ID was made/suggested.

I see the rest as "added value".

If you -  personally - don't like the extra info, you can ignore it. It's not difficult.

And which forums would banish someone from adding extra information? I'd like to know, so I can avoid them.

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How high is the E string measured a cm or so down the fingerboard?  It sounds like it could be low.  Not critiquing - I enjoyed it, just trying to explain why somebody might say it sounded metallic.  I try to sound metallic, to me it is the most magical sound, but rich metallic.  

It looks better now too.  The original pictures could be the Red Violin immediately after it was dug up out of the grave.

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On 7/7/2019 at 10:04 AM, jacobsaunders said:

...., in order to attribute a violin on it’s features, one needs a whole list of features where one can tick boxes off. For instance, does it have linings let into the corner blocks, yes/no: does the fluting go all the way to the end of the scroll throat, yes/no;  Does the bottom of the back of the scroll have a sort of triangular delta at the bottom, yes/no etc. etc. ....

 

 

 

 

So, has anyone published such a check list of features and/ or documented a fairly thorough ID process... all in one place??? 

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