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Fyldefiddler

Cello bow ID help please

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Can any of you experts out there help please with identifying where this bow might come from? I love the elegance of the tip, which is ebony lined and has quite a marked triangle on each side close to the very tip. The round stick seems to be pernambuco and the bow weighs 82.4 grams and is full size. 

I hope the photos give enough clues but can post more if not. 

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F9B85A5D-62C3-499B-B0E3-A4A70CDD2BA4.jpeg

9B3E2223-F58A-4370-8F91-088CC2AEF433.jpeg

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1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

It looks French to me, based on the button, slide, and frog, but ignore me and wait for those who know to chime in.

I was going the other direction, let's see what the people who  really know say.  Dark  pics, though I can't blame that  if I"m wrong.

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Quite a nice German frog, pre-1930 to my eyes ...

Not sure if the stick belongs to the frog ... how is the fit between the frog and the handle?

Adjuster looks like a later cheap nickel thing.

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FWIW, the single turning of the adjuster collar doesn't so much look German as it looks not-French, to me.

If the back of the head and the chamfers are filed/sanded smooth, that's German procedure. With French work, these are left as the knife cut them (the back as part of the roughing-out process preliminary to bending, the chamfers as the finishing touch.

Assuming the face plate of the head is original (a big assumption), if it's polished, German. French is left matte, & stays whiter forever.

Again, assuming the face plate is original, view the head from above it, looking straight down. In French procedure, the edges are shaped with a flat file against the sides of the head. What results is a white ivory "halo" around it, from the edges being wider than the lines & head proper.

Again, if original, the nose, viewed straight on, will be triangular if French (or a replacement on a French bow by somebody competent) -- not pentagonal.

Nipple at the other end : knife cut freehand in French procedure ; turned by Germans.

FWIW

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6 minutes ago, A432 said:

FWIW, the single turning of the adjuster collar doesn't so much look German as it looks not-French, to me.

If the back of the head and the chamfers are filed/sanded smooth, that's German procedure. With French work, these are left as the knife cut them (the back as part of the roughing-out process preliminary to bending, the chamfers as the finishing touch.

Assuming the face plate of the head is original (a big assumption), if it's polished, German. French is left matte, & stays whiter forever.

Again, assuming the face plate is original, view the head from above it, looking straight down. In French procedure, the edges are shaped with a flat file against the sides of the head. What results is a white ivory "halo" around it, from the edges being wider than the lines & head proper.

Again, if original, the nose, viewed straight on, will be triangular if French (or a replacement on a French bow by somebody competent) -- not pentagonal.

Nipple at the other end : knife cut freehand in French procedure ; turned by Germans.

FWIW

Thank you very much, this is very valuable information and I appreciate it.

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3 minutes ago, A432 said:

Just passing on what Bill Salchow said (and Bill Redford wrote). Thanks properly go to them  :)

I will have to wait to express gratitude to either one, and I am perfectly willing to wait. Meanwhile, you’ll do…

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A couple other points :

French makers took a pretty cavalier attitude toward whether their face plates were symmetrical, and few of theirs were (Persoit being a notable exception to the rule).

German noses tend to be rounder than French noses -- they wanted the nose ridge to be meatier, making it a little less easy for a crack to start. Bill adopted that as a good idea.

 

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Thank you so much everyone for the very helpful observations. I’m assuming it is German as the head is certainly polished not matte, though the triangle v pentagon is not so clear to me. Regardless, it is lovely to play with and that is the key thing. 

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I’m afraid I think this all breaks down a bit if you’re looking at fine C19 German work.

Also there are too many exceptions on both sides to rely on these features.

With The OP bow we have the very helpful starting point of an underslide with steel or silver screws. So if the frog fits the stick it’s 98% certain to be German.

the adjuster is a bit of an irrelevance since it doesn’t go with the frog and doesn’t seem to fit the stick either. But the single cut and the rounded cap are 100% German.

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Sure. You can only go so far with generalizations. Sometimes even with the same maker. But they are what they are, and a point of departure if nothing more.

ADD : If you're wondering whether a violin is 18th century Milanese, you start working your way down the list of characteristics that many share (although that not all do goes without saying).

And given that what people are going  to be using that list to get a handle on is the mass-produced trade stuff, which does tend to show Robert Crum's  "high standard of standardness," I don't think it's unhelpful or, provided it's used within its limitations, deceptive.

I'd certainly be interested in Martin's going over some of the exceptions he notes -- especially if accompanied by illustrations !   :)

Edited by A432

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