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notsodeepblue

Open trench frog question

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I am intrigued by the fact that no one is defending the wedge/ferrule construction.  Many descriptions of the evolution of the bow ascribe an increased ability for accents at the frog to the wedge and ferrule.

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For the life of me I can't understand what the problem is with offering a Dominique Peccatte with its original open frog, but with an additional frog copied from a Peccatte with a slide and underslide at no extra cost which makes a musician happier. Nothing is destroyed or changed in the slightest, and any fears about deviations from the modern norms are allayed ....

Are you merely objecting to the fact that without the copy frog the bow is almost impossible to sell, and that it should stay that way in the interests of purism?

For anyone who's interested, a fine replica frog and button from one of the top people costs around €2000.

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Have you ever made a bow??

Assuming you're referencing frogs, only about seven or eight of them. Using 19th century Mirecourt hand tools (which Salchow made for/sold to his students) and procedures.

It's not rocket science.

Replicas can be tricky, though. I once showed Salchow a Tubbs copy frog I'd made. His verdict : "This looks more like Tubbs than Tubbs does."  I was crushed, but realized he was right. I'd made a caricature of one.

 

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58 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Just the excessive subsequent  price increase in many cases.

To me there is no difference in price between a Peccatte with an open frog and one with a modern frog, only a difference in saleability, so I don’t see where you’re coming from ...

 

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5 minutes ago, martin swan said:

only a difference in saleability

This might result in a difference of pricing, at least in reality;). As I said, I can't tell much about this particular segment, but we had discussed the question "keep originality, but loose saleability", what means usually loose money in other cases. The last was about Jacob's oversized cello. Of course this is  a dilemma in which many restorers are falling very often, so it's real.

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I am intrigued by the fact that no one is defending the wedge/ferrule construction.  Many descriptions of the evolution of the bow ascribe an increased ability for accents at the frog to the wedge and ferrule.

If this were not a distinct, widely-recognized improvement, the increased expense involved would have rendered it a non-starter. Instead, it's standard. Initially, as a retrofit.

Snarky comment about thinking before writing omitted.

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When I'm reading right, this particular thread is called "Open trench frog question", not "Ferrule, improvement or not", so what's the problem?

Usually nobody is asking if an original modern standard frog should be replaced with an open trench, it's just the other way round about historical fittings. Snarky?

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12 hours ago, martin swan said:

To me there is no difference in price between a Peccatte with an open frog and one with a modern frog, only a difference in saleability, so I don’t see where you’re coming from ...

 

Sorry Blank Face, I meant I didn't understand where fiddlecollector was coming from ...

 

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13 hours ago, martin swan said:

Are you merely objecting to the fact that without the copy frog the bow is almost impossible to sell, and that it should stay that way in the interests of purism?

I think you`ll find a D Peccatte without a copy frog is NOT almost impossible to sell if your price is realistic! 

If a player commissions   a frog to a fine bow for `purely ` being able to use it more comfortably by modern standards, why does it have to be an` exact copy ` of the maker? 

Unless `purely ` for playing purposes  also has a monetary incentive as a bonus ,with some vanity issue as well. ( the original frog and button may be still there  ,i dont have a problem with those sitting somewhere safe).

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Sorry Blank Face, I meant I didn't understand where fiddlecollector was coming from ...

 

Value, price and saleability aren't the same, but close related and impacting each other. As I understood it, it was about how the change from an original plain ebony open trench frog to a replacement gold mounted modern standard frog might affect this parametres. B)

"Purity" issues at a bow aren't such a grave matter, where the saved original frog can be much easier re-fitted than original neck and bass bar at a violin, not to mention cutting down or enlarging an instrument. I'm just wondering if a soloist or even a member of an important orchestra would be so brave to use such an open trench frog bow in a non-period concert...

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Despite the bias against open trench, I'm not convinced the difference is a playing disadvantage.

The main difference is that there is not such a sharp difference in the stiffness of the hair ribbon approaching very near the frog.  So yes, the action to bite the string with the hair changes some.  But also the hair is slighly freer and more similar to tension of lower low middle of bow length.  So the character of legato stroke changes less radically approaching the frog.

These differences can be exploited in both cases.  So different yes.  But better or worse??

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To throw in some "pro" arguments for modern frogs (as was requested), from a technical point of view they are undeniably superior in some aspects:

You have a much better controll about hair distribution and don't need a very broad frog to get an equally broad ribbon and are able to take an higher amount of hair if needed. The catalogue picture posted by fiddlecollector at the first page is deceptive in this regard because the ribbons aren't that wide as the picture is pretending. Mortice and wedge are protected by the pearl slide. You don't get so easily into a mess of hair when removing the frog for bending or cleaning the stick (unless you secure it with a ribbon or the like at open trench).

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I don’t think an open trench frog is a viable proposition for a serious modern player. 

So if you have a nice stick with a trench frog that needs a modern frog, why not make one that looks like a Peccatte frog?

No-one is under any illusions, it all goes on the certificate ....

We do the same with Pajeots with experimental frogs or fine bows with ivory frogs. 

As for fitting a gold frog, it wouldn’t be my choice, but if someone consigns such a bow to us we sell it for the price of a silver mounted example.

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When I'm reading right, this particular thread is called "Open trench frog question", not "Ferrule, improvement or not", so what's the problem?

As you could have noticed but didn't, I was responding to the Andres Sender post I quoted immediately above what I wrote.

"The problem" is not paying attention.

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Thank you - this has been informative :)

I have a collection of ivory bows and not knowing what to do with them!

I also have a drawer full of expensive gold top-end bows which don't sell:(

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