Sign in to follow this  
notsodeepblue

Open trench frog question

Recommended Posts

I wondered if anyone might be able to tell me when open-trench frogs stopped finding their way onto bottom of the heap, mass-produced bows?

I ask as I assume the bow pictured below fits this description, and it looks to be well matched to the fibre-board case and (simply) inlayed tailpiece it came with, which I had assumed were from the first couple of decades of the 20th century. I had thought this would be later than the typical date range for such open-trench frogs, but perhaps this is incorrect?

thanks in advance,

Image1.jpg.86f7e1f14a16a6d28efc113fc936c53f.jpg

Image2.thumb.jpg.d246478204c5486bb90d36ebef1dd2ea.jpg

Image3.thumb.jpg.43ecb79129c77028bfa8623fa85f5988.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open trench bows were produced up to around 1920`s. The one you have has a metal  underslide which would generally point to later rather than earlier.  The button is interesting . I assume its from the Bazin workshops or Mirecourt . They were often supplied with the instrument .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Open trench bows were produced up to around 1920`s. The one you have has a metal  underslide which would generally point to later rather than earlier.  The button is interesting . I assume its from the Bazin workshops or Mirecourt . They were often supplied with the instrument .

That's extremely interesting - thanks very much.

And can I just say, it never ceases to amaze me how you are able to read and understand a bow from so little information ...deeply impressive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say your is very late 19th century,  the workshops started adding pearl eyes to these and underslide and then normal 3 part or covered metal buttons whereas earlier ones generally had plain buttons of bone or ivory. They seem to disappear from catalogues by around 1920, they are usually listed as` sans recouvrement `meaning no mountings (i think). Often covered in that nasty red varnish over abeille wood or exotic wood sticks. These are from the 1912 JTL catalogue courtesy of Rolland Terrier, notice how these have normal type buttons and pearl eyes.(they also have the round vuillaume type track but going right off the end of the stick instead of stopping short.) There were many variations.

image.thumb.png.5cd62030b10df5fe50fd61ece27cdc26.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open trench bow frogs have been entirely replaced with "normal" frogs, with no improvement in "Performance" whatsoever, which shows where the no-brain issue lies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Open trench bow frogs have been entirely replaced with "normal" frogs, with no improvement in "Performance" whatsoever, which shows where the no-brain issue lies

Replacing the entire frog seems like too much expense, unless adding a ferrule and slide is more expensive. But having the hair held in place consistently should improve the bow, otherwise why do it at all?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Replacing the entire frog seems like too much expense, unless adding a ferrule and slide is more expensive. But having the hair held in place consistently should improve the bow, otherwise why do it at all?

 

 

We are of this world to repair violins/bows, not to „improve“ them. If you don’t want an open trench bow, you should buy a conventional one. Only an arsehole buys an antique object to change it to suit their vain notions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive seen some tie thread or even wire around where the ferrule usually goes to hold the hair in place. But in my experience the hair stays put fine as long as the maker cut the hair channel well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

We are of this world to repair violins/bows, not to „improve“ them. If you don’t want an open trench bow, you should buy a conventional one. Only an arsehole buys an antique object to change it to suit their vain notions.

 

Jacob you must have some personal problems going on in your life to make you be so rude. I hope you find a solution to them quickly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To translate this into understandable words for those being affected by European Directness, many period players of "transitional", "classical", "Biedermeier" or whatever name you might give them would be very very sad :wacko:seeing these style of bow being vandalized. From a practical point of view I had never problems to sell an open trench frog bow, if 19th or early 20th century to glad musicians, always enjoying their music happily.:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Blank face said:

To translate this into understandable words for those being affected by European Directness, many period players of "transitional", "classical", "Biedermeier" or whatever name you might give them would be very very sad :wacko:seeing these style of bow being vandalized. From a practical point of view I had never problems to sell an open trench frog bow, if 19th or early 20th century to glad musicians, always enjoying their music happily.:rolleyes:

That makes sense, thank you. I would never buy a bow like this, but I asked the question regarding other folks who might have acquired one.

and it is quite possible to be direct without being rude. It is even easy to be polite without being rude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2019 at 7:08 AM, Blank face said:

To translate this into understandable words for those being affected by European Directness, many period players of "transitional", "classical", "Biedermeier" or whatever name you might give them would be very very sad :wacko:seeing these style of bow being vandalized. From a practical point of view I had never problems to sell an open trench frog bow, if 19th or early 20th century to glad musicians, always enjoying their music happily.:rolleyes:

^_^

Yes. Either it's "okay" to modify an antique - or it's not.

While one actually CAN have it both ways - should one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There exist enough examples of open trench frogs which were retro-fitted with ferrules and slides (Tourtes included) during their original owners' lives (and probably by their original makers) that the issue is hardly the either/or one it's assumed to be.

As nearly as can be determined, this was regarded as an improvement (an "upgrade") to a bow that was either made previously to ferrules being adopted, or was more affordable at the time by this feature being omitted (earlier Tourtes &c. with very deep throats especially).

Today it would be a simple enough matter to make a suitable replacement frog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, A432 said:

 

Today it would be a simple enough matter to make a suitable replacement frog.

For example we have two Dominique Peccatte bows with open frogs. We’ve had modern copy mounts made for these bows since there is no market for a Peccatte with an open frog. But everything is kept together for posterity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Such open trenches are back for 'Baroque' sticks.  I certainly don't recognize any performance disadvantage from the open trench when using my Baroque bow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, martin swan said:

...there is no market for a Peccatte with an open frog.

Beside that I'm not in the market for Peccattes (and think I'm not really wanting to get into it:rolleyes:) this confirms once more that the real enemy of original preserved instruments are musicians. Or maybe those spreading popaganda like "this way it will perform better"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, martin swan said:

For example we have two Dominique Peccatte bows with open frogs. We’ve had modern copy mounts made for these bows since there is no market for a Peccatte with an open frog. But everything is kept together for posterity.

As far as i`m concerned utter nonsense, its an excuse to add a fancy modern frog  for not much money and then double the asking price!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As far as i`m concerned utter nonsense, its an excuse to add a fancy modern frog  for not much money and then double the asking price!

Ever tried finding a frog from a different bow that fits a specific stick ?

For that matter, how many people do you know with hundreds of them to try and choose from ?

And how many of the even approximate matches would be a la Pecatte ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, A432 said:

Ever tried finding a frog from a different bow that fits a specific stick ?

For that matter, how many people do you know with hundreds of them to try and choose from ?

And how many of the even approximate matches would be a la Pecatte ?

He refers to a "custom made" new frog to match a stick. Not a big deal for an experienced bow maker, and the costs compared to a "Peccatte value" nihil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, A432 said:

Ever tried finding a frog from a different bow that fits a specific stick ?

For that matter, how many people do you know with hundreds of them to try and choose from ?

And how many of the even approximate matches would be a la Pecatte ?

And your point is what  ?  You know people who charge 50K to make a frog????. Have you ever made a bow??

How many people do i know with 100`s of what??  `Peccatte frogs` or  `a frog` or someone to make a replacement frog that isn`t  a  real Peccatte frog but looks like one and fits on the stick?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.