Who are the most undervalued contemporary builders?

[PASEWICZ]

31 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I feel about the same way about Sartory bows. There are certainly other prolific workshops I feel similarly about, but I'll try to avoid pissing anyone else off at the moment.

That’s alright, i’ll do it.....

For many of the shops, romantic notions aside, the math just doesn’t work out.

[martin swan]

40 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

but I'll try to avoid pissing anyone else off at the moment.

 

C'mon Jeffrey, live a little ....!

 

 

[PhilipKT]

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I think that has merit, but this sort of popularity can be short-lived... a passing fad, if the experts and dealers don't eventually come around to supporting it.

Aren't there quite a few makers who once generated a buzz among musicians, who have faded into oblivion? Maybe the sound qualities didn't last... I don't know. But a highly experienced fiddle technician might be in a better position to evaluate the potential longevity of the sound and playing characteristics of a fiddle, than a player, and also see the potential for future mechanical or structural problems.

Daniel Parker.

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I believe that in the case of Vuillaume violins, the relative consistency of the workshop and the ease in which they can be identified (even by a relative novice) has a great deal to do with their continued market success and stability (in terms of value)... no matter who was chained to the bench at the time they were produced.  Some may be better than others, but the standard was well maintained.  

I hope no-one starts throwing fruit, but I feel about the same way about Sartory bows. There are certainly other prolific workshops I feel similarly about, but I'll try to avoid pissing anyone else off at the moment.

Vuillaume bows are a slightly different subject... It appears that, within certain parameters, the makers were left more or less alone to exhibit their own "style" and ideas.

Jeffrey, are you saying that Sartory did not make all the Sartory bows?

[Andreas Preuss]

6 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Yes sir, “gossip” was not my word and misplaced I suspect.

My mistake. Apologies.

[Andreas Preuss]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Sorry, I should have specified contemporary Cremonese.

But that's kind of a weird thing, since only a very few of the contemporary Cremonese makers have successfully emulated what was done in the "golden age" of Cremona making. It's been quite a while since I judged one of the Cremona Trianalle Competitions, but the general consensus  at that time was that many of the submitted instruments looked like clones of each other, quite separated from what was done in Cremona in the past, and perhaps suffering from excessive inbreeding.

This illustrates more or less my point. Players in Japan have other evaluation criteria than for example American players. In those terms 'undervalued' (to come back to the original topic) depends largely on how the musicians on the particular market view instruments.

Your view on Cremonese instruments is more or less correct. To be fair there are a few exceptions.

However,  those 'clone violins' have  a pretty high demand in Asia so it is especially for young makers safer to follow the mainstream to make a living.  

 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

Jeffrey, are you saying that Sartory did not make all the Sartory bows?

I don't know about that, but back when I was coming up, there was almost universal disrespect among players for Sartorys.

Still, there were some rich collectors getting heavily into the game, like Henry Schwab, the owner of a drugstore chain, and a frequent visitor to the Weisshaar shop, who was a huge Sartory collector. Maybe it eventually worked out for him?

[PhilipKT]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't know about that, but back when I was coming up, there was almost universal disrespect among players for Sartorys.

Still, there were some rich collectors getting heavily into the game, like Henry Schwab, the owner of a drugstore chain, and a frequent visitor to the Weisshaar shop, who was a huge Sartory collector. Maybe it eventually worked out for him?

That’s amazing, as far as I know he’s one of the top dozen or so makers of all time, and because he died in 1946, a lot of his bows are not yet worn out.

I can’t believe that people sneered at him, especially since several other Bowmakers apparently copied him.

[David Burgess]

10 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Your view on Cremonese instruments is more or less correct. To be fair there are a few exceptions.

I agree that there are exceptions.

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I can’t believe that people sneered at him, especially since several other Bowmakers apparently copied him.

Back then, Sartorys were considered too stiff to be good players. Playing styles have changed....

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

Daniel Parker.

Highly regarded still

 

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

Jeffrey, are you saying that Sartory did not make all the Sartory bows?

What do you think Jules, Fétique, Louis Morizot and Gillet were doing in his workshop. I can assure you they weren't just making the tea and mopping the genius Sartory's brow ...

[PhilipKT]

16 minutes ago, martin swan said:

What do you think Jules, Fétique, Louis Morizot and Gillet were doing in his workshop. I can assure you they weren't just making the tea and mopping the genius Sartory's brow ...

Well, I guess you left out Otto Hoyer, The German Sartory, but are you saying that these makers, each of whom was an outstanding maker in his own right, would have made bows that were stamped with Sartory’s name?

Edited June 2, 2019 by PhilipKT
Addendum

[Andreas Preuss]

36 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't know about that, but back when I was coming up, there was almost universal disrespect among players for Sartorys.

Still, there were some rich collectors getting heavily into the game, like Henry Schwab, the owner of a drugstore chain, and a frequent visitor to the Weisshaar shop, who was a huge Sartory collector. Maybe it eventually worked out for him?

Sartorys fame today was and still is largely triggered by the Asian market. I think it started when Japanese players started to go crazy for his bows driving prices through the roof. 

Trusting the judgement of bow experts it seems that Sartory bows are just as good or as bad as Nurnberger. And I see the price difference in simply how the word got around in the mouth of musicians. Does it have something to with the substance? 

Had Nurnberger had the same mouth to mouth advertising bows from his workshop would be more expensive than Sartory.

[PASEWICZ]

33 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Sartorys fame today was and still is largely triggered by the Asian market. I think it started when Japanese players started to go crazy for his bows driving prices through the roof. 

Trusting the judgement of bow experts it seems that Sartory bows are just as good or as bad as Nurnberger. And I see the price difference in simply how the word got around in the mouth of musicians. Does it have something to with the substance? 

Had Nurnberger had the same mouth to mouth advertising bows from his workshop would be more expensive than Sartory.

I think you are trusting the wrong “bow experts”.....

Depending on the maker you wish to refer to as “Nurnberger” (a huge distinction your bow expert should have made clear), examples can vary wildly, as well camber, graduations, use of tools, use of pins, construction of Paris eyes, construction of buttons, mortises, head style, wood choice.....just about everything that makes bows different from each other, not the least of which (in fact hugely different) the way they play.

So sorry, the price difference once again has to do with the product not the gossip.

However, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and I will gladly trade Nurnbergers from my inventory for as many Sartorys as you can lay your hands on.

I am trying to keep an open mind here, but your post is pretty (by pretty I mean completely) ridiculous.  

[Andreas Preuss]

21 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

I think you are trusting the wrong “bow experts”.....

Depending on the maker you wish to refer to as “Nurnberger” (a huge distinction your bow expert should have made clear), examples can vary wildly, as well camber, graduations, use of tools, use of pins, construction of Paris eyes, construction of buttons, mortises, head style, wood choice.....just about everything that makes bows different from each other, not the least of which (in fact hugely different) the way they play.

Referring to the old Albert Nurnberger bows. Excellent bows just as consistent as Sartory just made in a different style. Tried to sell a few of those in literally untouched original condition. The only person who showed interest was a high class soloist from Europe. Mouth to mouth evaluation exists for Sartory but not for Nurnberger in Japan.

Please slow down Jerry! My bow experts are presumably the same experts you are trusting. 

 

I chose the Nurnberger example because it seems that his workshop provided bows to many businesses in the US before WW2. 

When Nazis came to power apparently those dealers didn't want to sell German bows any more giving Sartory the opportunity to jump in. For more detailed information on this I would ask Isaak Salchow who is writing a book on Sartory.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Andreas Preuss

[PASEWICZ]

30 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Referring to the old Albert Nurnberger bows. Excellent bows just as consistent as Sartory just made in a different style. Tried to sell a few of those in literally untouched original condition. The only person who showed interest was a high class soloist from Europe. Mouth to mouth evaluation exists for Sartory but not for Nurnberger in Japan.

Please slow down Jerry! My bow experts are presumably the same experts you are trusting. 

 

 

Well no Andreas, there is not a respectable bow expert that would have made such an irresponsible statement.....any one of them would know the differences between Sartory and Nurnberger as well as the variations in Nurnberger bows (Including Albert Nurnberger bows) as well as the difference in working styles, construction methods, and pretty much every characteristic that makes one bow different than another, including, and above all, playability......these are mostly objective differences that are not in dispute but can be seen, demonstrated, and repeated.

You are way out in left field on this one, and if you care to pm me the “expert’s” name who you are referencing I will happily call and find out exactly what was said, because what you are representing isn’t in the right ball park.

I really am not trying to beat you up here Andreas. 

[Andreas Preuss]

21 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Well no Andreas, there is not a respectable bow expert that would have made such an irresponsible statement.....any one of them would know the differences between Sartory and Nurnberger as well as the variations in Nurnberger bows (Including Albert Nurnberger bows) as well as the difference in working styles, construction methods, and pretty much every characteristic that makes one bow different than another, including, and above all, playability......these are mostly objective differences that are not in dispute but can be seen, demonstrated, and repeated.

You are way out in left field on this one, and if you care to pm me the “expert’s” name who you are referencing I will happily call and find out exactly what was said, because what you are representing isn’t in the right ball park.

You didn't answer my question about Scarampella. 

[PASEWICZ]

Just now, Andreas Preuss said:

You didn't answer my question about Scarampella. 

Does that have to do with Sartory?  Am I part of an argument about Scarampella?

[Andreas Preuss]

16 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Does that have to do with Sartory?  Am I part of an argument about Scarampella?

I think I asked you how it does come that Scarampella prices rank constantly at the same level as Vuillaume? In my view the only thing which can defend it is the consistency for the sound and the mouth to mouth appreciation of musicians. 

 

[PASEWICZ]

27 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I think I asked you how it does come that Scarampella prices rank constantly at the same level as Vuillaume? In my view the only thing which can defend it is the consistency for the sound and the mouth to mouth appreciation of musicians. 

 

I am not quite sure how this fits into the discussion, but okay.

[A432]

Two points that bear pondering.

1. Sartory bows are very well suited to making average players with average instruments sound louder and better.  They're cushiony, wrap around the string, & pull a full sound. They play about like driving an old Cadillac, but the people who like them, like them. De gustibus non disputandem.

2. Oistrakh was able to spend his western earnings on bows and bring them home for resale (fringe benefit). With his choice of pretty much any French (or other) bows, he played a Nurnberger.

FWIW

[PASEWICZ]

6 minutes ago, A432 said:

Two points that bear pondering.

1. Sartory bows are very well suited to making average players with average instruments sound louder and better.  They're cushiony, wrap around the string, & pull a full sound. They play about like driving an old Cadillac, but the people who like them, like them. De gustibus non disputandem.

2. Oistrakh was able to spend his western earnings on bows and bring them home for resale (fringe benefit). With his choice of pretty much any French (or other) bows, he played a Nurnberger.

FWIW

Yes, Sartory bows have a different concept of graduation and camber than other bows.  I suspect this was his way of keeping up with the changing playing styles of the time.  I also agree that some of the Nurnberger bows are indeed very, very, good. The truth is there are a whole lot of good bows out there and there have been a whole lot of good bow makers throughout history, including today.

[David Beard]

17 minutes ago, A432 said:

Two points that bear pondering.

1. Sartory bows are very well suited to making average players with average instruments sound louder and better.  They're cushiony, wrap around the string, & pull a full sound. They play about like driving an old Cadillac, but the people who like them, like them. De gustibus non disputandem.

2. Oistrakh was able to spend his western earnings on bows and bring them home for resale (fringe benefit). With his choice of pretty much any French (or other) bows, he played a Nurnberger.

FWIW

Nurngergers can be very functional.

[PASEWICZ]

6 minutes ago, David Beard said:

Nurngergers can be very functional.

Yes, and some very incredible players use Sartorys.