Most expensive new instruments?

[Herman West]

5 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

One of the most famous (internationally) names in the pro violin field plays a Greiner. The fact his name escapes me doesn't demean the maker one iota. When/if I think of it, I'll come back and edit. (Maybe Zimmerman???)

 

Zimmermann plays on loaned Strads. He famously had to return the Lady Inchiquin in 2015 and after a wait got the General Dupont Strad.

Tedi Papavrami is a touring and recording violinist who used to play a contemporary instrument for many years (a Christian Bayon) but recently he seems have caved and switched to Stradivari.

To return to the opening anecdote; I just can't imagine walking the streets at night with half a million worth of instruments in a case. I mean, how hard is it for a stick-up artist to say Your fiddle or your life? Of course hopping in a cab at the stage door is not much safer either, since most soloists forget about their instrument the minute they're in a cab.

[Emilg]

37 minutes ago, Herman West said:

Zimmermann plays on loaned Strads. He famously had to return the Lady Inchiquin in 2015 and after a wait got the General Dupont Strad.

 

A bit OT: Zimmermann did get the Lady Inchiquin back: https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/cozio-carteggio/lady-inchiquin-stradivari-1711/

Scroll down to: UPDATE, July 2016: the North Rhine-Westphalia government in Germany has now bought the ‘Lady Inchiquin’, and has confirmed that it plans to hand the violin back to Zimmermann on long-term loan. 

There's a very nice documentary "Die Seele der Geige" (The soul of the violin) with some moving footage of him being reunited with the Lady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haVOHGLVGq4

 

 

 

 

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, not telling said:

The fake auction thing wouldn't work because there would have to be a rigged sale multiple times, to elude detection of the price inflation, and that wouldn't be possible to pull off. At least, not without an extra million bucks.

Price increases are not unexpected in the fiddle and art world, and are often even taken as affirmation of an objects investment potential.

A million bucks? No. A maker could sell five fiddles at auction for 100K each, establishing a very favorable and readily available "price history", for around 20K each in auction house fees. That's about the cost of 7 full-page ads in The Strad magazine. Which do you think would be more effective at allowing the maker to charge higher prices?

If the auction "price history" allows the maker to charge 20K more per instrument, how many instruments would it take to recover the 100K the auction house charged to sell/buy those five instruments?

 

[martin swan]

It's worth bearing in mind that although most people regard auctions as the place to get a bargain, it works the other way too. In fact it can be argued if not demonstrated through logic that most people pay too much at auction ...

If two buyers are keen on an item for which there is a single opportunity, they will often pay well over the fair market price.

In the case of a living maker with a long waiting list who has a well recorded online price history, I suspect people pay a lot just to jump the queue. And then the act of bidding gets the blood up - these are not sensible prices.

[nathan slobodkin]

A much more interesting question is whose instruments would sell best with the labels removed.

[Dave Slight]

12 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

A much more interesting question is whose instruments would sell best with the labels removed.

I agree, and I'm sure it would severely upset the status quo to a great extent!

[martin swan]

34 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

A much more interesting question is whose instruments would sell best with the labels removed.

I think you could apply this to the whole violin trade, new and old instruments alike.

But I don't think it's possible to get away from the fact that people buy makers and stories as much as they buy sound. And a price history is an important part of that story ...

[GeorgeH]

43 minutes ago, martin swan said:

In fact it can be argued if not demonstrated through logic that most people pay too much at auction ...

In fact, it can be demonstrated in practice. It is a known cognitive bias called "The Winner's Curse."

[martin swan]

That's a bit different. 

I'm meaning that an item in a shop has a theoretical retail price but no-one will ever buy it. Put it into an auction and create some competition, suddenly people will buy it because they will get it for "significantly less than the retail price".

And yet it was never worth anything like the retail price because at the retail price there was never a willing buyer.

Likewise a Sam Z that Sam Z himself is selling for $150k - what a ridiculous idea. But if you allow the buyers to set the price and pit two against each other ... different story.

[GeorgeH]

There are some crooked sellers on eBay that practice this psychology by offering an "old Italian violin" with a famous maker label at a "buy it now" price of $25-50k. After nobody buys it, they put it up for auction where it sells for an order of magnitude less, but much more than it is worth.

In addition to the "significantly less than the retail price" phenomena, there is a cognitive bias called "anchoring" that can set a price higher or lower in a buyer's or seller's mind. 

 

[Andreas Preuss]

There are makers in the hidden who reach those prizes. Not going to mention any names.

What a maker demands officially for his instruments is one thing what goes into his account is another thing. I have the suspicion that driving up prices has maybe the goal to handle trade-ins.

[Anthony Panke]

What makes makers able to ask for these sorts of prices, (other than years of experience and skill)?- in other words how do they market themselves and justify such a price?

[Jim Bress]

14 hours ago, David Burgess said:

A maker can ask whatever they wish.

The two contemporary instrument I currently own,  which I chose because I thought they represented something very close to the top of the heap, were not by any means the most expensive.

The scroll of the one still makes me smile when I reminisce on it, but then I’m a scroll geek. Is that a thing?

[AtlVcl]

6 hours ago, Keviar said:

Christian Tetzlaff?

Yes, exactly. Thank you very much!

[David Burgess]

27 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

The scroll of the one still makes me smile when I reminisce on it, but then I’m a scroll geek. Is that a thing?

I suppose that's better than being a scroll troll.

Thanks for not mentioning any names, much appreciated. 

[Mansfield Piggot]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Thanks for not mentioning any names, much appreciated. 

Only by you

P.S. Do they do competitions?  Just curious, no interested in figuring out who they are.

[gowan]

13 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

One of the most famous (internationally) names in the pro violin field plays a Greiner. The fact his name escapes me doesn't demean the maker one iota. When/if I think of it, I'll come back and edit. (Maybe Zimmerman???)

OTOH, it's a silly yet common question. Regardless of who might be the most expensive, it can be very revealing to know who the famous performers perform on to make their daily bread. As an example, L. Harrell doesn't play the violin, but he makes a fine living on a modern cello by a maker only a few cognescenti would recognize.

I'm no Lynn, but then I've never been accused of thinking so. That said, I play a modern "shop" instrument I find very satisfying. Strings and setup can overcome a lot, and this instrument is more stable and reliable than my 18th. century Venetian ever was. Now every time I open the case I know for a plain fact that if I put my fingers in their proper place, the proper sounds will reliably come out.

In the end, "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian." A few people come to learn that; many don't.

Christian Tetzlaff plays a Greiner.  Lynn Harrell plays a cello by Christopher Dungey.

[PhilipKT]

7 minutes ago, gowan said:

Christian Tetzlaff plays a Greiner.  Lynn Harrell plays a cello by Christopher Dungey.

I think that what a great artist plays at the end of his career  is much less important than what he plays in the middle of his career. At the beginning he plays whatever, but then he is discovered and given or purchases a great instrument. At the end of his career that instrument is worth “huge tracts of land” If you will forgive the Monty Python reference, and he can sell it, and switch to a competent modern instrument. Therefore, what Lynn plays on now, or yo-yo, Or any other great artist in the twilight, is less significant than if they were playing the same instrument at the age of 30.

[PhilipKT]

 I am flabbergasted by the auction results that have been shared here, and I’m not a little bit grateful for several new names that I can research and learn about. 

 I should have been more specific in my original question. What I’m wondering is what living maker is getting the most for his instruments, in the sense that you go into his shop, choose a fiddle, or a cello for that matter, and write him a check. 

Except in the event of the deception such that David is describing, an auction sale Does not involve the maker, but a subsequent owner.

If someone is willing to pay $60,000 extra to skip the waiting period for a Ziggy, well then, they have too much money.

[David Burgess]

I think one or more of the Zygmuntowicz auction fiddles had the provenance of having been owned by a famous player.

[PhilipKT]

20 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I think one or more of the Zygmuntowicz auction fiddles had the provenance of having been owned by a famous player.

Yes it belonged to Isaac Stern.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

Yes it belonged to Isaac Stern.

There was also one that was owned by Ricci.

But people who research the auction results don't necessarily know that.

[not telling]

10 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Price increases are not unexpected in the fiddle and art world, and are often even taken as affirmation of an objects investment potential.

A million bucks? No. A maker could sell five fiddles at auction for 100K each, establishing a very favorable and readily available "price history", for around 20K each in auction house fees. That's about the cost of 7 full-page ads in The Strad magazine. Which do you think would be more effective at allowing the maker to charge higher prices?

If the auction "price history" allows the maker to charge 20K more per instrument, how many instruments would it take to recover the 100K the auction house charged to sell/buy those five instruments?

 

Ahhh. Interesting. So it would be possible and even economical to PR one's own self into a successful career via rigged auctions. As long as the person bankrolling the sales doesn't miss any, i.e., one cannot accidentally allow the market to do its thing in an overlooked auction. I have thought that, but even I wouldn't say it. I'm glad you did though. I love it when things get interesting around here.

 

[gowan]

Another question.  People drool over an instrument previously owned by some famous player but did that famous player really play the instrument instead of the GdG or Strad they generally concertize on?  I think famous soloists acquire "copies" of their main instrument  to use in outdoor concerts or in unfavorable climates but otherwise use their GdG or whatever.  I suppose that is some kind of endorsement for the copy since it was actually used, not just put into a cabinet and kept there until it is sold under the rubric "ex-ABC" type of sale.  However the question would be does the famous soloist actually prefer the copy over the original.  Obviously Tetzlaff could fairly easily acquire use of a named GdG or Strad but it seems he prefers the Greiner.  I heard an interview online with Perlman at his summer camp for young people.  Of course Perlman was holding a violin and the interviewer asked whether it was the Soil Strad.  Perlman said no it was his "summer violin" and he played a bit on it and said "Sounds pretty good, eh?"  So good enough to play in humid conditions.

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, gowan said:

Another question.  People drool over an instrument previously owned by some famous player but did that famous player really play the instrument instead of the GdG or Strad they generally concertize on?

Hard to know. I have been solicited by a few players for big discounts, in return for what they could supposedly do for my reputation. Maybe some makers go for stuff like that, and maybe it works.