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Kristen Stadelmaier

Can you tell me anything about this instrument? Labeled Maregno Romanus Rinaldi

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39 minutes ago, antero said:

No, I am actually asking for nothing, I know it pretty well and have no strong feelings about it (in either direction).

I was just curious, as you put this repertoire next to crap and Kristen seemed to a Suzuki teacher.

I kind of like this parallel topic in this thread ^_^ it has gone the usual way anyhow...

 Over time, any competent teacher learns to notice differences in his approach, and in the approach of others, and is able to reasonably judge whether those differences Are irrelevant, or flaws in one approach or the other. I have found all of the typical flaws in the Suzuki approach.

Suzuki was quite correct when he had the flash of inspiration that we learn music in the way we learn speech, through hearing and repetition. But he was incomplete. Knowing a language does not make one a successful orator, nor a successful actor, nor a success at expressing or evoking emotion. All those things are necessary to create a successful musician, And none of them is present in the Suzuki system,  at least not in the earlier levels with which I am familiar, and which are the foundation of all subsequent progress. 

I happy to share more via PM but as I said, Kristen’s original query has gone quite far afield, and no need to digress further.

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3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I love your comments. By the way, every time I try and insert an emoji into a comment, I am forbidden to do so. What makes you so special?

Thanks.  A trick I learned from Addie.  If they aren't on the site's canned selection, I save them to disc, then insert them as attachments.  :)

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Thanks.  A trick I learned from Addie.  If they aren't on the site's canned selection, I save them to disc, then insert them as attachments.  :)

Where is the sites selection?

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:33 AM, Violadamore said:

bdh.gif.b8ed365e30711b17ef40b73b4037ac7c.gifpopcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon.gif.b9ef7dfb407de3e491349a477986a042.gif

We've been here before.  BTW, using "duty" as an excuse for beastly conduct got shot down at Nuremberg in 1946, if some here have forgotten.  :P

Wow, never expected that from you. Much like the " like Hitler " comments on various internet forums.

We Europeans take our history very seriously. Not because we hold grudges, although some do. Many of us are only one generation away from a time of tremendous suffering, a time when families were caught up in the events of history that so profoundly affected them, it also had a great effect on the next generation. No matter what side they were on. It is not like you to be so flippant about such serious matter.

This is where some of our sensitivities lie. No question we are not as polite as the North Americans. When I first came to Canada  I unintentionally offended many a Torontonian with my  straight forward unfiltered opinions, which back home nobody worried about. But I must say it is nice to be a little more polite. After 38 years here I sometimes have to remember " observe, don't absorb" when talking to my family, that they don't mean it in a personal manner.

Edited by hendrik
better wording

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7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 Over time, any competent teacher learns to notice differences in his approach, and in the approach of others, and is able to reasonably judge whether those differences Are irrelevant, or flaws in one approach or the other. I have found all of the typical flaws in the Suzuki approach.

Suzuki was quite correct when he had the flash of inspiration that we learn music in the way we learn speech, through hearing and repetition. But he was incomplete. Knowing a language does not make one a successful orator, nor a successful actor, nor a success at expressing or evoking emotion. All those things are necessary to create a successful musician, And none of them is present in the Suzuki system,  at least not in the earlier levels with which I am familiar, and which are the foundation of all subsequent progress. 

I happy to share more via PM but as I said, Kristen’s original query has gone quite far afield, and no need to digress further.

We're talking about educating children.  They start out writing with crayons and don't actually produce great works of literature.  Nor do they produce great renditions of concertos.  But the often-repeated claim that they don't express emotion well is both false and unreasonably demanding.  Many of Suzuki's first students went on to become prominent professionals, some of them concertmasters.

Suzuki's students and those of his successors did learn to play with excellent technique, and with flair and expressiveness, at a time when just about no one had any idea whatsoever how to teach young children.  When Suzuki first came to the U.S. with his class of children, they dazzled the western world.

When we were hiring teachers for our children in the 1980s, we found a lot of highly competent Suzuki teachers who had students who played very well.  In contrast, we could find no competent traditional teachers at that level.  Their student recitals were, without exception, aesthetic ordeals.  Yes, I know that a few outstanding traditional teachers exist, but at the time we couldn't find any at all.

Suzuki has had a huge influence on a large number of outstanding teachers and players.  I don't know what's happened since his death, but he certainly can't be responsible for thousands of teachers 20 years after his death.  Frequently someone posts here and tries to trash a dead man's reputation.

If you're interested in teaching methods, read the Wikipedia articles and other literature.  You can't deny the resumes.  If you're trying to find a teacher, ask around, then attend lessons and recitals and see for yourself whose students play well.  There are a lot of sour grapes around.  Don't listen to the criticisms without seeing for yourself.

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1 hour ago, hendrik said:

...Europeans take our history very seriously. Not because we hold grudges, although some do. Many of us are only one generation away from a time of tremendous suffering, a time when families were caught up in the events of history that so profoundly affected them, it also had a great effect on the next generation. No matter what side they were on. ...

 No question we are not as polite as the North Americans. When I first came to Canada  I unintentionally insulted many a Torontonian with my  straight forward unfiltered opinions, which back home nobody worried about. But I must say it is nice to be a little more polite. After 38 years here I sometimes have to remember " observe, don't absorb" when talking to my family, that they don't mean it in a personal manner.

I am 1st generation Canadian. I grew up listening to my folks and their cohorts arguing, debating (loudly) and generally having a good time.

It took me until my mid-twenties to figure out this wasn't a Canadian "norm". Yes - I'm sometimes very slow.

Even now if I get caught up in what I consider a "discussion", I am told to stop ranting. This response still surprises me.

I often feel much more comfortable in Europe, or when hanging out with immigrants...

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33 minutes ago, La Folia said:

We're talking about educating children.  They start out writing with crayons and don't actually produce great works of literature.  Nor do they produce great renditions of concertos.  But the often-repeated claim that they don't express emotion well is both false and unreasonably demanding.  Many of Suzuki's first students went on to become prominent professionals, some of them concertmasters.

Suzuki's students and those of his successors did learn to play with excellent technique, and with flair and expressiveness, at a time when just about no one had any idea whatsoever how to teach young children.  When Suzuki first came to the U.S. with his class of children, they dazzled the western world.

When we were hiring teachers for our children in the 1980s, we found a lot of highly competent Suzuki teachers who had students who played very well.  In contrast, we could find no competent traditional teachers at that level.  Their student recitals were, without exception, aesthetic ordeals.  Yes, I know that a few outstanding traditional teachers exist, but at the time we couldn't find any at all.

Suzuki has had a huge influence on a large number of outstanding teachers and players.  I don't know what's happened since his death, but he certainly can't be responsible for thousands of teachers 20 years after his death.  Frequently someone posts here and tries to trash a dead man's reputation.

If you're interested in teaching methods, read the Wikipedia articles and other literature.  You can't deny the resumes.  If you're trying to find a teacher, ask around, then attend lessons and recitals and see for yourself whose students play well.  There are a lot of sour grapes around.  Don't listen to the criticisms without seeing for yourself.

Now we can talk about the failures. How many millions of children entered the program to produce the successes you mention. And I don’t deny those successes, and I applaud the number of participants. I also accept that of course young children express emotion. But the flaws I mention are quite real and interfere with musical expression or evocation of emotion. I’m not being sour grapey in the slightest and good heavens, I’m not “trashing a dear man’s reputation” and if you infer that from what I wrote, then you have issues that can’t adequately be addressed here. I’m not denying the virtues. I am merely stating that there are flaws in the system. It seems that you are a parent of a musician and not a musician yourself, but I am a musician, a teacher and well aware of Suzuki, and I can justify everything I am saying.

And I’m not in the slightest trying to “trash a dear man’s reputation.”

Good grief.

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1 hour ago, hendrik said:

Wow, never expected that from you. Much like the " like Hitler " comments on various internet forums.

We Europeans take our history very seriously. Not because we hold grudges, although some do. Many of us are only one generation away from a time of tremendous suffering, a time when families were caught up in the events of history that so profoundly affected them, it also had a great effect on the next generation. No matter what side they were on. It is not like you to be so flippant about such serious matter.

This is where some of our sensitivities lie. No question we are not as polite as the North Americans. When I first came to Canada  I unintentionally insulted many a Torontonian with my  straight forward unfiltered opinions, which back home nobody worried about. But I must say it is nice to be a little more polite. After 38 years here I sometimes have to remember " observe, don't absorb" when talking to my family, that they don't mean it in a personal manner.

I remember meeting a college professor from Canada in my neighborhood several years ago. She and her husband were visiting professors, and had landscaped their yard quite nicely. One day while walking through the neighborhood, I stopped to chat with her about the yard. After learning they were from Canad, I asked, “Are you a native Canadian?”

She shot me a sudden suspicious look and asked frostily,”what do you mean by that?”

I was flabbergasted by her sudden change in demeanor, and answered,” I’m asking if you were born in Canada, of course.”

She relaxed a bit and affirmed that they were both born in Canada.

To this day I have no idea why she took such offense and I just came to the conclusion that sometimes people are stupid.

One thing I’ve always thought and taught is that it is stupid to take offense where none is intended. You can be offended if you wish, but it's stupid.

Save your energy for the real problems.

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34 minutes ago, Rue said:

I am 1st generation Canadian. I grew up listening to my folks and their cohorts arguing, debating (loudly) and generally having a good time.

It took me until my mid-twenties to figure out this wasn't a Canadian "norm". Yes - I'm sometimes very slow.

Even now if I get caught up in what I consider a "discussion", I am told to stop ranting. This response still surprises me.

I often feel much more comfortable in Europe, or when hanging out with immigrants...

You’ve never ranted, although you’re so clever I bet I’d love reading a tirade from your pen.

BTW, one of the best bows I ever owned was made by a Canadian maker named Hubert Chanon. I’ve never been able to find anything about him except he apparently died fairly recently. You’re from Canada. Did you know him?

(laff laff)

no, but seriously...

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2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Now we can talk about the failures. How many millions of children entered the program to produce the successes you mention.  ...It seems that you are a parent of a musician and not a musician yourself, but I am a musician, a teacher and well aware of Suzuki, and I can justify everything I am saying.

Hmmm, it seems you haven't seen any of the good programs.  Among the Suzuki programs I have had personal experience with, virtually all the kids learned to play well, and quite a large number of them turned out to be successful professionals, including some international soloists.  Even the hackiest teacher I know produced a student who later won the Paganini Competition.

 

2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

It seems that you are a parent of a musician and not a musician yourself, but I am a musician, a teacher and well aware of Suzuki, and I can justify everything I am saying.

Ah, you're on to me.  I guess I'm not a real musician.  I've only been playing violin about 59 years.

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19 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Now we can talk about the failures. How many millions of children entered the program to produce the successes you mention. And I don’t deny those successes, and I applaud the number of participants. I also accept that of course young children express emotion. But the flaws I mention are quite real and interfere with musical expression or evocation of emotion. I’m not being sour grapey in the slightest and good heavens, I’m not “trashing a dear man’s reputation” and if you infer that from what I wrote, then you have issues that can’t adequately be addressed here. I’m not denying the virtues. I am merely stating that there are flaws in the system. It seems that you are a parent of a musician and not a musician yourself, but I am a musician, a teacher and well aware of Suzuki, and I can justify everything I am saying.

And I’m not in the slightest trying to “trash a dear man’s reputation.”

Good grief.

Philip-

Based on your observations I have a hard time believing that you have any real experience with contemporary Suzuki programs and I wonder if you really are familiar with the repertoire. As for the latter, what is it you find so lacking? Bach Double? Vivaldi Concerti? Is it Mozart 4 and 5? The Dvorak Humoresque arrangement? Perhaps the Handel sonatas? Really?

As for the method, hopefully you are aware that it’s not a static thing - it continues to evolve as its strengths and weaknesses are better understood. The Suzukis teachers I’ve observed over extended periods of time (dozens) invariably supplement the method with other traditions, repertoire, and methodology.

As the parent of two Suzuki students, I’ve spent the last 10+ years watching hundreds of kids of all descriptions thrive, fail, succeed, and occasionally triumph (they all do all of these things). I’ve continuously observed  the growth of many kids for 10 years and counting. I’ve watched my own two very different  children benefit in very different ways. Crucially, these benefits don’t always have anything to do with music. As you must know from the reading you’ve done, Suzuki’s objective was to “make good citizens.” I wouldn’t have spent the last decade of my life practicing with my kids every day, taking weeks off to attend institutes with them every summer, attended hundreds of lessons, and spent every Saturday morning of the academic year with them at group classes if the results were purely about music.

Your contention that Suzuki students fail to imbue their playing with emotion is demonstrably false.. I hear that it’s false on a daily basis as my son works his way through book 4 (playing those Seitz movements that you must despise) and when I hear my daughter play the first movement of Mendelssohn . I heard it last week when I listened to a violist play her last performance here, 13 years after starting in the program with a violin made from a macaroni box and a paint stirring stick. She’s off to NEC in the fall, following a second stint with NYO this summer. I heard it two years ago just before another left for Juilliard, and I hear it in kids that will grow up to be teachers, scientists, doctors, and others that simply go on to appreciate music and pay the salaries of people like you.

Edited by Scott Clarke

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5 hours ago, hendrik said:

Wow, never expected that from you. Much like the " like Hitler " comments on various internet forums.

We Europeans take our history very seriously.

Calling somebody a Nazi online is just bound to be inflammatory and it will derail any discussion. 

It's perfectly clear where BF, Saunders and Swan were coming from, i.e. deep and serious luthier knowledge, and to call one of them a Nazi, "just to get his attention" is frivolous. And certianly not what Kirsten would want, even when you're trying to act like her BFF.

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3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 After learning they were from Canada, I asked, “Are you a native Canadian?”

She shot me a sudden suspicious look and asked frostily,”what do you mean by that?”

I was flabbergasted by her sudden change in demeanor, and answered,” I’m asking if you were born in Canada, of course.”

She relaxed a bit and affirmed that they were both born in Canada.

To this day I have no idea why she took such offense and I just came to the conclusion that sometimes people are stupid.

 

It really isn't that hard to figure out why they were taken aback at your question. 

A "native" Canadian is from before Europeans came to Canada. This is serious stuff in Canada.

The question you wanted to ask is whether they were born in Canada, but the "of course" is again kind of backwards.

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8 hours ago, hendrik said:

This is where some of our sensitivities lie. No question we are not as polite as the North Americans. When I first came to Canada  I unintentionally insulted many a Torontonian with my  straight forward unfiltered opinions, which back home nobody worried about. But I must say it is nice to be a little more polite. After 38 years here I sometimes have to remember " observe, don't absorb" when talking to my family, that they don't mean it in a personal manner.

Sorry to pick you, not because you did it, just when you are naming it.

All this Selbstbeweihräucherung about alleged politeness sounds hypocritical recalling that many of the most worse insults, usually disguised as "humour",  were coming from a certain gang of cowboys, not only in this thread but also in many others before. VdA's quote was just the top of the iceberg. I'm watching this phenomena growing since about two years now, probably not accidentally.

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Re: mis-understood „Politeness“

 

It is worth pointing out that nobody has remotely been „inpolite“ to the OP in the slightest in this thread. She asked what her €150 faux Italian Ebay gargoyle was, and recieved precised authoritative information. If anything it was the „Village Idiots“ (like it) who were being condecending, cooing there moronic questions like, „how does it sound“ and the like. Towards the end, it was the OP herself who became insulting“ with the Insinuation that people had told he that her junk was rubbish out of whatever percunary motives, an entirely groundless accusation for which she should wash her mouth out with soap

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6 hours ago, La Folia said:

Hmmm, it seems you haven't seen any of the good programs.  Among the Suzuki programs I have had personal experience with, virtually all the kids learned to play well, and quite a large number of them turned out to be successful professionals, including some international soloists.  Even the hackiest teacher I know produced a student who later won the Paganini Competition.

 

Ah, you're on to me.  I guess I'm not a real musician.  I've only been playing violin about 59 years.

If you’re a player as well, you should be aware, and we shouldn’t be having this conversation.

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5 hours ago, Herman West said:

It really isn't that hard to figure out why they were taken aback at your question. 

A "native" Canadian is from before Europeans came to Canada. This is serious stuff in Canada.

The question you wanted to ask is whether they were born in Canada, but the "of course" is again kind of backwards.

 

6 hours ago, Scott Clarke said:

Philip-

Based on your observations I have a hard time believing that you have any real experience with contemporary Suzuki programs and I wonder if you really are familiar with the repertoire. As for the later, what is it you find so lacking? Bach Double? Vivaldi Concerti? Is it Mozart 4 and 5? The Dvorak Humoresque arrangement? Perhaps the Handel sonatas? Really?

As for the method, hopefully you are aware that it’s not a static thing - it continues to evolve as its strengths and weaknesses are better understood. The Suzukis teachers I’ve observed over  extended periods of time (dozens) invariably supplement the method with other traditions, repertoire, and methodology.

As the parent of two Suzuki students, I’ve spent the last 10+ years watching hundreds of kids of all descriptions thrive, fail, succeed, and occasionally triumph (they all do all of these things). I’ve continuously observed  the growth of many kids for 10 years and counting. I’ve watched my own two very different  children benefit in very different ways. Crucially, these benefits don’t always have anything to do with music. As you must know from the reading you’ve done, Suzuki’s objective was to “make good citizens.” I wouldn’t have spent the last decade of my life practicing with my kids every day, taking weeks off to attend institutes with them every summer, attended hundreds of lessons, and spent every Saturday morning of the academic year with them at group classes if the results were purely about music.

Your contention that Suzuki students fail to imbue their playing with emotion is demonstrably false.. I hear that it’s false on a daily basis as my son works his way through book 4 (playing those Seitz movements that you must despise) and when I hear my daughter play the first movement of Mendelssohn . II heard it last week when I listened to a violist play her last performance here, 13 years after starting in the program with a violin made from a macaroni box and a paint sirring stick. She’s off to NEC in the fall, following a second stint with NYO this summer. I heard it two years ago just before another left for Juilliard, and I hear it in kids that will grow up to be teachers, scientists, doctors, and others that simply go on to appreciate music and pay the salaries of people like you.

I’m not going to restate my points, which remain valid. I’m also not going to try again to clarify your misunderstanding.

I’m glad you’ve had good success, which is after all the goal of every music student.

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5 hours ago, Herman West said:

It really isn't that hard to figure out why they were taken aback at your question. 

A "native" Canadian is from before Europeans came to Canada. This is serious stuff in Canada.

The question you wanted to ask is whether they were born in Canada, but the "of course" is again kind of backwards.

It is stupid to take offense where none is intended. “Native” refers to where one was born. I’m a Native American. Even if Canadians define the word differently, I wouldn’t know that and again, offense is stupid. Even if I WERE asking if she were a “native” in the sense that she thought, it’s hardly an offensive question.

People are far too easily offended these days, perhaps all days, and kindness and understanding are never wrong.

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In Canada the terms Native, First Nations, Indigenous (the current preferred "general" term) and aboriginal are used pretty much interchangeably - even though not everyone agrees...

We are currently in a political hotbed of Indigenous concerns.

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5 hours ago, Blank face said:

Sorry to pick you, not because you did it, just when you are naming it.

All this Selbstbeweihräucherung about alleged politeness sounds hypocritical recalling that many of the most worse insults, usually disguised as "humour",  were coming from a certain gang of cowboys, not only in this thread but also in many others before. VdA's quote was just the top of the iceberg. I'm watching this phenomena growing since about two years now, probably not accidentally.

No hypocrisy, I've been getting increasingly dismayed by the coarsening of discourse on these boards over the last couple of years myself.  Reading between the lines of what you just said, the motives are political, i.e., we can't directly argue politics here because Jeffrey won't stand for it, so some people are taking out their umbrage by slinging insults and picking fights over other issues.  Few of the regular posters are entirely innocent in the matter.  I'd very much like to see it stop.

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I guess I don't get why people feel the need to bash on anyone's instrument, even if they think it is trash. Do you go up to people and tell them their children are ugly and that they will never amount to much? I was raised with the adage "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." If someone wants information on a cheap instruments you could just say "it will never be worth very much, but hopefully it plays well for you." or maybe once it has been determined what an instrument is just let it go and find something productive to do with your time? Me personally I will take being kind over being an expert anyday, and there is no reason you can't be both. Think of the appraiser on The Antiques Roadshow. 95% of what they see is probably junk, but they can evaluate the items with a smile and kindness and usually everyone leaves happy. 

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1 minute ago, glebert said:

I guess I don't get why people feel the need to bash on anyone's instrument, even if they think it is trash. Do you go up to people and tell them their children are ugly and that they will never amount to much? I was raised with the adage "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." If someone wants information on a cheap instruments you could just say "it will never be worth very much, but hopefully it plays well for you." or maybe once it has been determined what an instrument is just let it go and find something productive to do with your time? Me personally I will take being kind over being an expert anyday, and there is no reason you can't be both. Think of the appraiser on The Antiques Roadshow. 95% of what they see is probably junk, but they can evaluate the items with a smile and kindness and usually everyone leaves happy. 

THANK YOU!!!

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5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

No hypocrisy, I've been getting increasingly dismayed by the coarsening of discourse on these boards over the last couple of years myself.  Reading between the lines of what you just said, the motives are political, i.e., we can't directly argue politics here because Jeffrey won't stand for it, so some people are taking out their umbrage by slinging insults and picking fights over other issues.  Few of the regular posters are entirely innocent in the matter.  I'd very much like to see it stop.

This isn't political, though it is surely promoting the escalation on political or social issues. MN was always confrontative, but the special quality rising was once called "I'm holier than you" with all consequences.

BTW, I would be rather offended, too, if someone started to compare my children with violins.

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