Dumb Kid...need advice.

[glebert]

If he: 

1.) Isn't a music major

2.) Hasn't auditioned for the cello group

3.) Is happy with his current cello

it seems like we shouldn't be pressuring him to upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised if Yale has a closet full of really good cellos just in case someone needs a "loaner." 

[Bill Yacey]

23 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

My question is what nice violin shops are in or near New Haven Connecticut? I don’t necessarily need a big one, I’m interested in where people who are knowledgeable honest and nice.

Also, if there any individual makers who happened to live in that area it would be nice to know about them as well..

You won't find any nice makers, or shops.

Just have a look at the mudslinging rivalry in some of the threads here.  Makers pitted against makers, with hurtful, caustic, violent remarks directed towards each other: Things like "Hey Jer,  where'd you learn to set necks,  New York? they look all wrong!"  or, "Bill, your last batch of varnish looks kind of pale, and you're cutting your nuts too high." or, "You wouldn't recognize a real dovetail, even if it was still attached to the pigeon!"

Wars were started over less .

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, glebert said:

If he: 

1.) Isn't a music major

2.) Hasn't auditioned for the cello group

3.) Is happy with his current cello

it seems like we shouldn't be pressuring him to upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised if Yale has a closet full of really good cellos just in case someone needs a "loaner." 

 He won’t be a cello major, but he will be minoring in cello. I doubt very seriously that he would be eligible for a cello from the University unless he were a need based scholarship a student and a music major to boot. 

 He’s happy with his cello now only because he has not yet become fully aware of its limitations. I know instruments well enough to know how good his current instrument is, And it is not adequate for his expanding needs.  

I may love my model T, But it is not adequate for my current needs.

[AtlVcl]

8 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 

Plus, the very fact that I posted the request for information makes your comment unnecessary. What am I doing here, except asking for guidance to a reputable shop where a very gifted and dear student can get an instrument suited to him?

Funny, I was going to commend Mr. Saunders excellent counsel to you. (and similarly, "Glebert" from Portland!)

BTW, for going on half a century now, I've sat on a whole lot of cello auditions for a major orchestra, and I've only ever rejected someone once (i.e, 1 time) because of their instrument.

That said, since you seem to not appreciate thoughtful advice, I'll keep my own counsel and let you pick the one out of the fishbowl that suits your purpose.

Good luck to your student.

[nathan slobodkin]

Lots of good violin makers and shops within an hour or two of New Haven. Philip Perret in Katonah NY is excellent as is his former student Mischa Parshenov in Ridgefield CT. If you want a bigger shop  Carriage House Violins in Newton MA has lots of cellos and a knowledgable sales staff.

[PhilipKT]

54 minutes ago, AtlVcl said:

Funny, I was going to commend Mr. Saunders excellent counsel to you. (and similarly, "Glebert" from Portland!)

BTW, for going on half a century now, I've sat on a whole lot of cello auditions for a major orchestra, and I've only ever rejected someone once (i.e, 1 time) because of their instrument.

That said, since you seem to not appreciate thoughtful advice, I'll keep my own counsel and let you pick the one out of the fishbowl that suits your purpose.

Good luck to your student.

So you commented to agree with Jacob for telling me to do exactly what I am doing. If that is your contribution, it is good that you are keeping your own council, though I doubt you have a quorum.

What is wrong with the advice I am seeking? What am I doing wrong? Do you suggest I should not be asking for advice?

Jacob offered nothing, certainly nothing involving thought, and neither do you, except an unrelated comment about your own experience.

I don’t want this Lad to have a better cello for any auditions. I’m sure it won’t matter, because he won’t be auditioning for anything, except various non-major groups.

 I want him to have a better cello because he is good enough to benefit from having one. I made that abundantly clear.  Anybody can look at my original post and have no problems discerning my intent.

I even went back and reread it to make sure that anyone with elementary English comprehension could understand it.

So I agree you should keep your own council. I certainly wish that you had.

[Bill Merkel]

It's an exciting time!  Differences of perspectives and opinions are to be expected.

 

i remember exciting times...

 

[AtlVcl]

4 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

So you commented to agree with Jacob for telling me to do exactly what I am doing. If that is your contribution, it is good that you are keeping your own council, though I doubt you have a quorum.

What is wrong with the advice I am seeking? What am I doing wrong? Do you suggest I should not be asking for advice?

Jacob offered nothing, certainly nothing involving thought, and neither do you, except an unrelated comment about your own experience.

I don’t want this Lad to have a better cello for any auditions. I’m sure it won’t matter, because he won’t be auditioning for anything, except various non-major groups.

 I want him to have a better cello because he is good enough to benefit from having one. I made that abundantly clear.  Anybody can look at my original post and have no problems discerning my intent.

I even went back and reread it to make sure that anyone with elementary English comprehension could understand it.

So I agree you should keep your own council. I certainly wish that you had.

Your common English language spelling mistakes aside, if you don't like the advice you've gotten from Mr. Saunders and myself, you're more than welcome to follow Mr. Slobodkin's; he's equally competent.  As always in modern life, a lot depends on your student's budget.

Again, good luck to your student, and good day to you.

 

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, AtlVcl said:

Your common English language spelling mistakes aside, if you don't like the advice you've gotten from Mr. Saunders and myself, you're more than welcome to follow Mr. Slobodkin's; he's equally competent.  As always in modern life, a lot depends on your student's budget.

Again, good luck to your student, and good day to you.

 

You gave me no advice. You only agreed with Jacob, who also gave me no advice. If you think you did, then I think we’re done. Jakob doesn’t seem terribly pleasant sometimes, but he is extremely knowledgeable. You seem to be neither. So I will thank you to continue to keep your counsel or, perhaps, begin to keep your counsel, which you have not done yet

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Lots of good violin makers and shops within an hour or two of New Haven. Philip Perret in Katonah NY is excellent as is his former student Mischa Parshenov in Ridgefield CT. If you want a bigger shop  Carriage House Violins in Newton MA has lots of cellos and a knowledgable sales staff.

 Thank you very much, I appreciate the information. I wish I were closer to New England, I would love to visit all of those shops myself.

[Bill Yacey]

1 hour ago, AtlVcl said:

Your common English language spelling mistakes aside, if you don't like the advice you've gotten from Mr. Saunders and myself, you're more than welcome to follow Mr. Slobodkin's; he's equally competent.  As always in modern life, a lot depends on your student's budget.

Again, good luck to your student, and good day to you.

 

See! It's starting. All kidding aside, seek out various instruments, play them, and get them evaluated by a few different independent parties. Decide on one that fits the budget. Don't dismiss independent makers; many fine instruments are produced by individual makers that have no association with dealers.

[StanY]

16 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

That’s an excellent suggestion. I’ve played two Wilkes, and I own a Caron, so I’ll certainly mention Wilke to Abhinav.

thanks!

FWIW Wilke's son is making cellos now as well, and pricing when we were looking was a fraction of his dad's, but there wasn't one available to try.  Not sure if that's still the case as he's also been getting recognition.

Like Nathan says, go to Carriage House and play many in one go (not only his and Wilke's but Benning, Rabut, Whedbee, ...).  Nathan we got to play a beautifully laid-back older cello of yours (poplar back?) at Reuning when we were up there :-).

[crazy jane]

Philip,

Having been both teacher and student, I admire your wish to ensure your student’s future success. However, I think you need to pass the baton. His new teacher will know what is best for his future musical success at Yale and will likely know more than anyone here about what instrument (shop or maker) in the area will best serve his musical aspirations. 

Clearly you have served him well. Kudos. 

[PhilipKT]

10 minutes ago, crazy jane said:

Philip,

Having been both teacher and student, I admire your wish to ensure your student’s future success. However, I think you need to pass the baton. His new teacher will know what is best for his future musical success at Yale and will likely know more than anyone here about what instrument (shop or maker) in the area will best serve his musical aspirations. 

Clearly you have served him well. Kudos. 

I don’t know why some here are misunderstanding me. I am not seeking to be in charge of his musical instrument search. I am asking for advice about good shops that he can visit to find a better instrument. I live in Texas, I’m not going to be there anyway. I CAN’T be closely involved.

I made it clear multiple times that he’s not majoring in cello, nor be auditioning for any major orchestras. He’s merely a good enough musician to warrant having a better instrument. That is all.

My advantage is that I am unbiased. I’m not seeking to make any money off any transaction, and that isn’t necessarily true of his new mentor. As a matter fact, every single college professor I know makes a pot of money off of transactions involving their students. I know several teachers who only send their students to one single local location because they get a “referral fee,” shall we call it, by sending their student there. So someone “helping him” up there would not necessarily be putting his needs first.

I am surprised and not a little offended that some people think I am doing something improper.

I asked for advice about new haven area music shops, because I have a very gifted student who would benefit from a better cello. That is the sum total of what I have done, and anybody who thinks it is somehow improper is welcome to jump in a lake… All the way to the bottom… And stay there.

[not telling]

The problem could be that he needs someone who will be there. As you say...not a teacher looking for profit on the side. Dealers are nice like many teachers are nice, as they too need money from customers like your student. It's not that they will swindle him, but I'm not sure who would teach him how to discern a great sound, the best value for the money, and/or something that will appreciate in value.

Can you take him around to shops around your area now, to help him spot the overall differences and nuances in step up instruments of various sorts?  All the way up? When he gets to where he's going, "if" he panics and realizes a better cello is not merely "optional" you want him to know how to spot better. Else even a nice, morally upright dealer might not resist taking advantage just a little bit. Jmo

 

[A432]

I would seriously consider finding a lower-end Mirecourt trade 'cello from around maybe 1900-1930 (plain wood, cheap spirit varnish) and re-graduating the top properly.

FWIW

[PhilipKT]

4 hours ago, not telling said:

The problem could be that he needs someone who will be there. As you say...not a teacher looking for profit on the side. Dealers are nice like many teachers are nice, as they too need money from customers like your student. It's not that they will swindle him, but I'm not sure who would teach him how to discern a great sound, the best value for the money, and/or something that will appreciate in value.

Can you take him around to shops around your area now, to help him spot the overall differences and nuances in step up instruments of various sorts?  All the way up? When he gets to where he's going, "if" he panics and realizes a better cello is not merely "optional" you want him to know how to spot better. Else even a nice, morally upright dealer might not resist taking advantage just a little bit. Jmo

 

That’s an excellent comment, and it is quite correct. Part of a teachers job is to educate as much as possible about equipment, and I spend my entire time with a student doing my best to develop their sense of taste and perception so that they will have a sense of what they want( and what they don’t!) and how much that might cost them(As an aside, one of my colleagues is looking for a step up from her 1940 Italian instrument, And she is noticing a profound difference between violins priced at $30,000, and those selling for $40,000. She’s played enough violins by now that she has an idea of what to expect when she plays a violin in a particular price range)

He has an ear and a sense, and I’m hoping he’ll be able to visit enough places and play enough cellos to make an informed choice when the time comes.

Edited May 16, 2019 by PhilipKT
Typo

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

That’s an excellent comment, and it is quite correct. Part of a teachers hob is to educate as much as possible about equipment, and I spend my entire time with a student doing my best to develop their sense of taste and perception so that they will have a sense of what they want( and what they don’t!) and how much that might cost them(As an aside, one of my colleagues is looking for a step up from her 1940 Italian instrument, And she is noticing a profound difference between violins priced at $30,000, and those selling for $40,000. She’s played enough violins by now that she has an idea of what to expect when she plays a violin in a particular price range)

He has an ear and a sense, and I’m hoping he’ll be able to visit enough places and play enough cellos to make an informed choice when the time comes.

I am a little surprised to hear that your colleague is seeing functional differences between $30,000 and $40,000 violins. In my experience price categories are quite broad and once you reach the price of a modern professional instrument at about $15,000 the price starts to reflect the collectors value more than it's suitability as a playing instrument.

[PhilipKT]

26 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I am a little surprised to hear that your colleague is seeing functional differences between $30,000 and $40,000 violins. In my experience price categories are quite broad and once you reach the price of a modern professional instrument at about $15,000 the price starts to reflect the collectors value more than it's suitability as a playing instrument.

That’s what she said, and I don’t have any particular reason to question her reactions.

[A432]

Meh. This is a two-way street with all the traffic on it going in the same direction (spend more $$$ = get more "quality").

It makes me recall an anecdote recounted by a former sales rep of a big London concern who was deputized to help Rostropovich find his dream 'cello.

His first question of Rostropovich was what qualities in a 'cello were most important to him.

His answer: "Give me loud 'cello. I will supply quality."

[Rue]

7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I don’t know why some here are misunderstanding me...

It's just the nature of the beast. Some people don't read the question fully. Others offer up information based on their take of the question or their own experience. And yet others just add info to a previous response.

A few weeks ago I asked a question in the guitar forum.

"I have a guitar. I don't want to commission a guitar, but I was wondering about..."

Almost every response was either;

"Buy a used guitar for your first guitar."

Or

"This is how you commission a guitar". 

[Greg Sigworth]

I have played the cello since a child on the same instrument which my father bought for me. It took me a long time to realize that it is not that great an instrument and a better instrument makes a big difference. The young man has to believe in looking for a new instrument and the best thing is for him to try some really nice instruments and be convinced himself that we wants a better instrument. If he is good on the cello he will see the difference and want a new instrument. Maybe he has some emotional connection to the present cello; he can keep it and still get another. Get him to try different cellos and give him time to think about it. 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

It's just the nature of the beast. ........................... commission a guitar, .........This is how you commission a guitar". 

I've never seen one make it through OCS. 

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, Greg Sigworth said:

I have played the cello since a child on the same instrument which my father bought for me. It took me a long time to realize that it is not that great an instrument and a better instrument makes a big difference. The young man has to believe in looking for a new instrument and the best thing is for him to try some really nice instruments and be convinced himself that we wants a better instrument. If he is good on the cello he will see the difference and want a new instrument. Maybe he has some emotional connection to the present cello; he can keep it and still get another. Get him to try different cellos and give him time to think about it. 

You make a valid point, but Abhinav’s cello is just a cello found on a search of Craigslist. Cool story, but Longstoryshort, it’s just a cello without any particular emotional attachment. He had a nice W Seifert bow( well, nice for what they are, anyway) but decided he liked my Alfred Knoll better, so we traded. He doesn’t want to be profligate.

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I've never seen one make it through OCS. 

As a former 11-B, that made me smile very wide.

I was the best cellist in my Division, and now I’m the best Infantryman in my orchestra, haha.