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sospiri

String break angle 158 degrees? Where does that come from???

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46 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

People can't resist saying everything they know.  That's why the internet has so many 10 page threads on how to change a light bulb.  If they don't say it, they don't know it.  Same reason interrogations last all day.  Gonna eventually say it if he knows it, or explode.

That reminds of the time I was in Zanzibar, surrounded and out numbered.... I could go on, but I don't want to bore you :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

That reminds of the time I was in Zanzibar, surrounded and out numbered.... I could go on, but I don't want to bore you :rolleyes:

I'm willing to listen, unless there's heavy metal cello.

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:46 PM, jezzupe said:

No, I'm not sure if you are stupid, but you sure are rude, seem to lack social skills, have an air superiority while at the same time seem to be woefully ignorant about what you are talking about. Have come to ask questions, yet seem to be the one who wants to give the answers, have told some of the most respected builders alive, who nicely took their time to try to help you, "they don't get it" when they most certainly do. 

So I don't call what I am doing "arm waving hubris". I call what I'm doing telling you directly, me to you, that I think you are,  rude, ignorant, stubborn and come across like a fool and have demonstrated behavior that will most likely not serve you well as far as people who "understand" trying to help you out in the future. 

Your statement also demonstrates a lack of understanding in that you are the instigator here, you are the one that is the problem, not me. I'm just taking the time to point it out.

You seem woefully unaware that punishment comes with bad behavior, your statement makes it sound as if I'm attacking some poor innocent guy who just wanted to get some help, and me with my superior self is just coming in here and throwing hubris around for no reason other than just to put stupid little you down. Poor you, right? 

The funny thing is you probably think your behavior is "ok"? I really think you need to go to your naughty spot and think about the way you've behaved here. For a clue,  the big "D" on your cap does not stand for "Dunce"

No, I'm not playing the victim, though I thought you would interpret it that way.

Just looking for clarity about what should really be simple geometry and a simple way to do the work.

 

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:35 PM, David Beard said:

You seem to hang on to many baseless assumptions as if they were sacred.

You might consider cultivating more room between thinking 'maybe?', and turning that into 'this MUST be'.

 

So you don't believe the old style neck influenced the sound at all compared to then modern style neck?

How about maybe? Is that enough room?

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On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 8:35 PM, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Necks will lose projection over time due to several factors.  A neck needs to be removable purposely for maintenance, but strong in the face of accidental damage.

I keep asking why? Is this more of an American thing where an instrument may be subjected to extremes of humidity causing the block to tilt backwards?

I have only seen failures due to bad woodworking.

 

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22 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I keep asking why? Is this more of an American thing where an instrument may be subjected to extremes of humidity causing the block to tilt backwards?

I have only seen failures due to bad woodworking.

 

The projection falls due to stretching/compression of the neck heel, as well as deformation of the top primarily between the upper bouts.  No it is not an American thing, it is a wood thing.

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2 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

The projection falls due to stretching/compression of the neck heel, as well as deformation of the top primarily between the upper bouts.  No it is not an American thing, it is a wood thing.

I don't have any evidence of this either. That's a polite way of saying I don't believe you.

But because I don't use emojis, It gives the impression of me being rude.

The plain truth is, I just got bored with emojis way back before they became customised.

If I was being rude I would say BOLLOCKS!

But really I'm just saying I don't believe you. Feel free to convince me it's true.

 

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1 minute ago, sospiri said:

I don't have any evidence of this either. That's a polite way of saying I don't believe you.

But because I don't use emojis, It gives the impression of me being rude.

The plain truth is, I just got bored with emojis way back before they became customised.

If I was being rude I would say BOLLOCKS!

But really I'm just saying I don't believe you. Feel free to convince me it's true.

 

I am not particularly interested in convincing you.  This is not difficult to observe or understand, as it consistent and predictable.

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17 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I keep asking why?

Because classical violin design, enabling the sound and playing qualities people have come to prefer, is not strong enough to endure the imposed loads over long periods of time without distorting. Yes, high moisture content in the wood makes this worse.

There are designs which shift or reduce these loads, such as we see with Marty's instruments.

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1 minute ago, sospiri said:

I don't have any evidence of this either. That's a polite way of saying I don't believe you.

But because I don't use emojis, It gives the impression of me being rude.

The plain truth is, I just got bored with emojis way back before they became customised.

If I was being rude I would say BOLLOCKS!

But really I'm just saying I don't believe you. Feel free to convince me it's true.

 

Could you briefly describe your background in woodworking,construction, engineering or any related field ?, because really you have no idea what you are talking about and have become tiresome. If you had even a shred of experience in field that uses wood you would know just how idiotic your statements are 

But then again I'm convinced, even if your not, that you're a troll, because you are extremely good at being irksome.

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14 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I don't have any evidence of this either. That's a polite way of saying I don't believe you.

But because I don't use emojis, It gives the impression of me being rude.

The plain truth is, I just got bored with emojis way back before they became customised.

If I was being rude I would say BOLLOCKS!

But really I'm just saying I don't believe you. Feel free to convince me it's true.

 

Why should Jerry or anyone else bother convincing someone who is resistant to learning? It is something which can be learned from many years of careful observation, or by believing those who have such experience. It can also be figured out with enough knowledge of the engineering properties of wood.

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 3:16 PM, Michael Darnton said:

I just want to point out something that people may not be aware of: I was taught (Sacconi-derived, probably) that the angle on the bottom of the neck should be 87 degrees, if I'm remembering my templates correctly. Whatever this angle is, when I was making some automated neck-setting machinery for the WH Lee shop in around 1990 I discovered that this angle provided that when the neck was placed on the end of a new instrument, resting on the uncut edge at the front, and on the rib near the button (the position when tracing to begin cutting the mortise) the neck was at the appropriate final angle to the body, with a 2.5mm edge overhang.

I thought this was interesting because it trains your eye what to look for in neck angle, right from the start of the process. Then all that's involved is keeping this angle through the process to the end. (That's for an average, normal neck set, obviously--therapeutic sets not included).

The result of this is that when the neck is finally in, it's 2.5mm deeper in the back, which works nicely with the idea that since most of the force tipping the neck forward, working to break the glue joint (no one is doubting this at this point in the discussion, right?) will be at the back of the mortise, near the button, where the glue joint is most important, deeper back there is better.

Obviously, if you believe deeper is better, then it's better to put it where needed, at the back. If you do it at the front, where not needed and the pressure is in the other direction, against the block, where you would unnecessarily weaken the block by cutting more deeply into it.

So logically, deeper at the back where needed, shallower in the front to maintain the integrity of the block, angle determined by the initial visual setting of the neck on the raw body.

I was also taught to make the neck 136.5mm long. This results in the neck stopping exactly at the inside of the purfling line, and if you subtract 2.5mm for the overhang, it put's it right at Davide's 4mm deep into the block/ribs at the front.

It's really quite elegant, and when I checked, the Sacconi? cello neck specs rendered exactly the same result--the amount of the plate overhang deeper in the back than the front--so I think it was definitely intentional.

There were a several other things I learned in restoration that were supposedly direct from the Sacconi influence in the Wurlitzer shop via one of the founders of Bein & Fushi who had worked there, and as I began to figure them out, they made the same kind of elegant sense.

I'm looking for ideas that I can use or adapt to make the whole process simple and this post helps.

 

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 4:46 PM, uncle duke said:

Seems to me if sospiri uses his 90 degrees or you use Saconni's 87 degrees you guys will be going in deeper into the neck block.  I don't see this as being less evasive than using an 83 degree. 

I took into consideration you may not of remembered the correct angle from long ago.

Where is your 83 degrees?

The way I see it there are three angles,

1,The angle at the top of the neck root/end of the neck

2, The angle at the bottom of the neck root which is the same as:

3, The angle of  (increase in )mortise depth.

So my 90 degree suggestion was with the same mortise depth and the same 90 degrees at the bottom of the neck root. The critical angle being the top angle, say 84 degrees, giving a neck angle the same, 84 degrees or 6 from horizontal. So,maybe this is what you mean by 83 degrees, but that is the final angle, not what is being discussed in the last few pages here. Yes it's confusing without digrams.

I could use 87 and 87 and 87 for all three and get the same result and then increase my credibility on MN whilst retaining solipsist status.

I might consider those numbers if restorers give their approval?

 

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1 hour ago, sospiri said:

No, I'm not playing the victim, though I thought you would interpret it that way.

Just looking for clarity about what should really be simple geometry and a simple way to do the work.

 

Clarity? something tells me you could be standing in the arctic sun with spotlights shining down on you with Pythagoras and Fibonacci drawing stick figures, casting shadow puppets and acting out like they were playing charades  and you still wouldn't get it, whatever it is.

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8 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Could you briefly describe your background in woodworking,construction, engineering or any related field ?, because really you have no idea what you are talking about and have become tiresome. If you had even a shred of experience in field that uses wood you would know just how idiotic your statements are 

But then again I'm convinced, even if your not, that you're a troll, because you are extremely good at being irksome.

I can assure, you there is some mutual feeling between us that you may not be aware of?

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1 minute ago, jezzupe said:

Clarity? something tells me you could be standing in the arctic sun with spotlights shining down on you with Pythagoras and Fibonacci drawing stick figures, casting shadow puppets and acting out like they were playing charades  and you still wouldn't get it, whatever it is.

You could play it out like Foucault's pendulum if you wish. Or you could consider that I may actually have a point?

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10 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Why should Jerry or anyone else bother convincing someone who is resistant to learning? It is something which can be learned from many years of careful observation, or by believing those who have such experience. It can also be figured out with enough knowledge of the engineering properties of wood.

I'm not resistant to learning, but some things are obvious and some require demonstration. I have the right to be skeptical of a small percentage of violin lore.

 

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8 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I can assure, you there is some mutual feeling between us that you may not be aware of?

Ya but I guess the difference between you and I is that I don't have any problem building instruments, I don't need to spend time wondering how to do something, I don't need to ask questions

 

7 minutes ago, sospiri said:

You could play it out like Foucault's pendulum if you wish. Or you could consider that I may actually have a point?

The only point to anything I see from you is that you are person who has preconceived ideas in your head about the way you think things work, people with experience have pointed out the many ways that you are incorrect, and you still seem to be set on showing us the finest in mediocrity on every level.  

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20 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

I am not particularly interested in convincing you.  This is not difficult to observe or understand, as it consistent and predictable.

The stretching/compression of the heel is what gets me

The other changes you don't have to convince me of.

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4 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I'm not resistant to learning, but some things are obvious and some require demonstration. I have the right to be skeptical of a small percentage of violin lore.

 

well have fun figuring it out, we have the right to remain silent

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1 minute ago, sospiri said:

I'm not resistant to learning, but some things are obvious and some require demonstration. I have the right to be skeptical of a small percentage of violin lore.

 

The most productive thing, for you, might be to do your own accelerated tests. Take very precise measurements of a violin. String it up with the strings tuned a third to a fifth high (the E string may not handle that without breaking, so you could substitute another string tuned the same interval higher than its normal pitch). Put it in a chamber with 95% humidity for two weeks. Then put it in a chamber with 30% humidity for two weeks. Repeat this cycle five times. Take careful measurements, and compare them with your original measurements.

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2 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Ya but I guess the difference between you and I is that I don't have any problem building instruments, I don't need to spend time wondering how to do something, I don't need to ask questions

 

The only point to anything I see from you is that you are person who has preconceived ideas in your head about the way you think things work, people with experience have pointed out the many ways that you are incorrect, and you still seem to be set on showing us the finest in mediocrity on every level.  

No, you're projecting an image onto me.

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1 minute ago, David Burgess said:

The most productive thing, for you, might be to do your own accelerated tests. Take very precise measurements of a violin. String it up with the strings tuned a third to a fifth high (the E string may not handle that without breaking, so you could substitute another string tuned the same interval higher than its normal pitch). Put it in a chamber with 95% humidity for two weeks. Then put it in a chamber with 30% humidity for two weeks. Repeat this cycle five times. Take careful measurements, and compare them with your original measurements.

That would work with steel string tuned slightly higher. I would expect the measurements to change, of course I would. But there is either a complete glue joint failure somewhere, or some sort of equilibreum altering lots of different parts.

 

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2 minutes ago, sospiri said:

That would work with steel string tuned slightly higher. I would expect the measurements to change, of course I would. But there is either a complete glue joint failure somewhere, or some sort of equilibreum altering lots of different parts.

 

No glue joint failure required. Do the test, and see what you can learn. Then get back to us.

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