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sospiri

String break angle 158 degrees? Where does that come from???

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2 hours ago, sospiri said:

What was the purpose of the original rib taper?

I wonder if it helped tonally with the original baroque neck?

How does anything help a neck tonally? I didn't realize that either Baroque or modern necks had tonal issues?

 

 

Why tapered?  We can guess but probably can't know.

But we can point to somethings the taper actually does.

* It does taper the rib (perhaps an end in itself?)

* changes the appearance approaching the neck

* changes geometry of overall upperbout structure. This will have complicated impacts on movements in this area

* assuming the top plate rim is made flat when unglued, then the taper imposes a small crowning of the plate when glued to sides.

 

To me, it seems all these impacts will be identical with an old or modern style neck.

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10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Yes but Bill 's just a shit-stirrer :P

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with exactly - the tapered element of what you call the dovetail really doesn't offer much resistance. You say that for it to fail the top block would also have to fail but this happens all the time - these are very small and quite fragile bits of grain which can split off the cheeks of the top block with the greatest of ease. I'm sure you have seen your fair share of necks with bits of top block attached after a pullout.

For me I think it's a very elegant joint, but it's really a strong glue joint with a bit of added stability from the taper. The great benefit of the taper is that it allows fine fitting of the neck in that it all stay together while you're sighting up to the bridge position. You can keep taking it apart and putting it back together, and making minor modifications to how the neck's sitting. Davide's video illustrates this beautifully.

As for definitions of joints, I prefer serious woodworking books to Websters. If you like, I can send you a copy of an excellent book called "The Complete Dovetail". 

This seems a beautifully balanced summation, giving each viewpoint its fair due.

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31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

As for definitions of joints, I prefer serious woodworking books to Websters. If you like, I can send you a copy of an excellent book called "The Complete Dovetail". 

Those danged ruffian Americans, always making trouble and defying convention, like refusing to pay the tea tax!  :lol:

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8 hours ago, martin swan said:

Yes but Bill 's just a shit-stirrer :P

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with exactly - the tapered element of what you call the dovetail really doesn't offer much resistance. You say that for it to fail the top block would also have to fail but this happens all the time - these are very small and quite fragile bits of grain which can split off the cheeks of the top block with the greatest of ease. I'm sure you have seen your fair share of necks with bits of top block attached after a pullout.

For me I think it's a very elegant joint, but it's really a strong glue joint with a bit of added stability from the taper. The great benefit of the taper is that it allows fine fitting of the neck in that it all stay together while you're sighting up to the bridge position. You can keep taking it apart and putting it back together, and making minor modifications to how the neck's sitting. Davide's video illustrates this beautifully.

As for definitions of joints, I prefer serious woodworking books to Websters. If you like, I can send you a copy of an excellent book called "The Complete Dovetail". 

My issue is that dovetail shape/ tapered element in the neck joint adds strength, there is not doubt about that as I think now you can agree.  A neck joint should be as well fit as possible to increase the strength as a neck popping out taking the button will then be less likely.  The bottom line is to do the job in the best possible way using techniques that are less likely to allow damage in the future. 

Actually, I have books on joinery, but unfortunately a book on cabinet making joinery will show joints used for cabinet making not all the iterations of terms in the English language.  Likewise, when you read a book on English bow making and repair, the term "dovetail" will not refer to, or illustrate the drawers of a 16th century armoire, or for that matter an 18th century walnut bureau.

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To mend the peace, and keep our American cousins happy,  perhaps a compromise could be reached. The offending  joint could be  renamed along an American theme in honor of someone or something ? :)

dove - bell -   joint    -   (liberty bell)

dove - gal           "       (Gals n Dolls)

dove - Al             "        ( Gore) politics -ouch.

dove - dell          "       (computers)

dove  - jail          "         (jail house rock)

dove - mail        "         (You've Got Mail) -  great film.

etc -etc -etc

 

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To summarize this train wreck of a post;

1. IF you are looking for "standardized" measurement for YOUR work, YOU WILL NEED FIGURE THEM OUT FOR YOURSELF for your work

2. in general, because most all hand made violins, virtually all measurements that are "out there" either online or in a book are SERVING SUGGESTIONS, and or approximations 

3. there are many different ways to do the same thing, some may be more "right" than others. For this particular task we have discussed, most agree that some sort of jig {as seen in Davides videos} generally is the best way to eliminate measuring and guess work.

that being said, there are many levels of success in this field, from the personal success of completing an instrument all the way to making instruments for professional musicians...there is no wrong or right way, the market will determine of you have something you can sell or not and whats it's monetary value may be....

there is no law that says a person who is engaging in this as a beginner/amateur must be respectful to people who are successful, but there definitely is judgement in it all to those who are not

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

My issue is that dovetail shape/ tapered element in the neck joint adds strength, there is not doubt about that as I think now you can agree.  A neck joint should be as well fit as possible to increase the strength as a neck popping out taking the button with then be less likely

If out-and-out strength of this particular joint is critical (my take from a number of responses in this and similar threads, not something anyone has explicitly written, as far as i have seen), is there a reason why the through-neck - or some flavour of the same - is not favoured, for new-builds if not sensitive restorations?

Is it the added mass of a maple upper-block that rules this out, or are there other considerations as well?

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15 minutes ago, notsodeepblue said:

If out-and-out strength of this particular joint is critical (my take from a number of responses in this and similar threads, not something anyone has explicitly written, as far as i have seen), is there a reason why the through-neck - or some flavour of the same - is not favoured, for new-builds if not sensitive restorations?

Is it the added mass of a maple upper-block that rules this out, or are there other considerations as well?

Necks will lose projection over time due to several factors.  A neck needs to be removable purposely for maintenance, but strong in the face of accidental damage.

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4 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Necks will lose projection over time due to several factors.  A neck needs to be removable purposely for maintenance, but strong in the face of accidental damage.

Makes sense. Thanks.

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52 minutes ago, Delabo said:

To mend the peace, and keep our American cousins happy,  perhaps a compromise could be reached. The offending  joint could be  renamed along an American theme in honor of someone or something ? :)

dove - bell -   joint    -   (liberty bell)

dove - gal           "       (Gals n Dolls)

dove - Al             "        ( Gore) politics -ouch.

dove - dell          "       (computers)

dove  - jail          "         (jail house rock)

dove - mail        "         (You've Got Mail) -  great film.

etc -etc -etc

 

Well that is awfully darn nice of you, however, isn’t Oxford University Press In the United Kingdom?   So if you chaps choose not to follow your own rule book, maybe it is not the rules that are the problem??? :rolleyes::DB)

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1 hour ago, notsodeepblue said:

If out-and-out strength of this particular joint is critical (my take from a number of responses in this and similar threads, not something anyone has explicitly written, as far as i have seen), is there a reason why the through-neck - or some flavour of the same - is not favoured, for new-builds if not sensitive restorations?

Both through-necks and nailed necks are not easily resetable. This may be the main reason why, after something like 200-300 years of experience with neck projections dropping, a different method came into favor.

1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Necks will lose projection over time due to several factors.  A neck needs to be removable purposely for maintenance, but strong in the face of accidental damage.

Agreed.

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

The neck is nailed onto a rib assembly which has already been removed from the form.  Since the ribs are no longer on the form, but not yet attached to the plates, there is no way of knowing whether the neck is being nailed on exactly straight.

Later, when the plate outlines are taken from the ribs, the neck can be pushed to one side or the other to align with the plates. Since the neck is already attached to the ribs, this will tweak the rib outline, often making it asymmetric.

So someone noticed the asymmetry of the ribs on the back plate  and then reversed engineered to determine  the working method ?

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27 minutes ago, Delabo said:

So someone noticed the asymmetry of the ribs on the back plate  and then reversed engineered to determine  the working method ?

Sort of, but much more was noticed and incorporated than the asymmetry of the plate outlines. Lots of things had to be a good fit, for the theory to have some sticking power, which I believe it does.

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18 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Sort of, but much more was noticed and incorporated than the asymmetry of the plate outlines. Lots of things had to be a good fit, for the theory to have some sticking power, which I believe it does.

The plate outlines themselves were deliberately made asymmetric ?

I thought we were talking about the ribs on the back plate not being put on straight ?

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6 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The plate outlines themselves were deliberately made asymmetric ?

I thought we were talking about the ribs on the back plate not being put on straight ?

No. The ribs being asymmetric, and hence the outlines (which are taken from the ribs), are an artifact of how and when the neck was attached.

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12 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The plate outlines themselves were deliberately made asymmetric ?

Big question, destined to remain unanswered, we will never know for sure.

Just opinions, but surely the perfect symmetry was not the main concern.....

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29 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

No. The ribs being asymmetric, and hence the outlines (which are taken from the ribs), are an artifact of how and when the neck was attached.

So the plate outlines were just roughed out at this stage.

The neck nailed to the ribs.

The top locating pin inserted into the top block through the back plate.

The neck swiveled to a straight position.

The bottom pin inserted through the back plate.

The plate outlines finished to the now asymmetric rib outline ?

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22 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I'm quite sure that the asymmetry in these outlines was deliberate.

Nobody's bad enough to do that by accident.

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4 minutes ago, Delabo said:

So the plate outlines were just roughed out at this stage.

The neck nailed to the ribs.

The top locating pin inserted into the top block through the back plate.

The neck swiveled to a straight position.

The bottom pin inserted through the back plate.

The plate outlines finished to the now asymmetric rib outline ?

Yes, except that both the upper and lower block locating pins may have been inserted before the neck was swiveled, and they may have been inserted through either the top, the back, or both before the neck was swiveled.

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Delabo,

The articles Roger wrote for the Biddulph GdG book lay out a workflow based on his observations of the instruments. Short of a time machine, we aren't going to know with complete accuracy, but it's an extremely efficient way of going about it and makes a ton of sense. I assume you have read it so I won't provide a readers digest version unless requested.

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12 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

  A neck joint should be as well fit as possible to increase the strength as a neck popping out taking the button will then be less likely.  The bottom line is to do the job in the best possible way using techniques that are less likely to allow damage in the future.

I fit mine dry so I can give it a good shaking and it will hold fine, I think it's called an,, um,,,dove-tail.

Then I size it then re fit it a bit, then glue. But if I have to take it back out I have a really big fit!!

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16 hours ago, David Beard said:

How does anything help a neck tonally? I didn't realize that either Baroque or modern necks had tonal issues?

 

 

Why tapered?  We can guess but probably can't know.

But we can point to somethings the taper actually does.

* It does taper the rib (perhaps an end in itself?)

* changes the appearance approaching the neck

* changes geometry of overall upperbout structure. This will have complicated impacts on movements in this area

* assuming the top plate rim is made flat when unglued, then the taper imposes a small crowning of the plate when glued to sides.

 

To me, it seems all these impacts will be identical with an old or modern style neck.

How does the taper help the old style neck tonally? I don't know. Help the instrument sing? Does the old style neck impose a different set of tonal dynamics on the instrument? I'm assuming it must do?

Was the top plate pressed down to be glued onto the taper? Can we tell by grain alignment? IOr was it carved differently?

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14 hours ago, jezzupe said:

To summarize this train wreck of a post;

1. IF you are looking for "standardized" measurement for YOUR work, YOU WILL NEED FIGURE THEM OUT FOR YOURSELF for your work

2. in general, because most all hand made violins, virtually all measurements that are "out there" either online or in a book are SERVING SUGGESTIONS, and or approximations 

3. there are many different ways to do the same thing, some may be more "right" than others. For this particular task we have discussed, most agree that some sort of jig {as seen in Davides videos} generally is the best way to eliminate measuring and guess work.

that being said, there are many levels of success in this field, from the personal success of completing an instrument all the way to making instruments for professional musicians...there is no wrong or right way, the market will determine of you have something you can sell or not and whats it's monetary value may be....

there is no law that says a person who is engaging in this as a beginner/amateur must be respectful to people who are successful, but there definitely is judgement in it all to those who are not

 

 

 

Right. So arm waving hubris is ok as long as it's directed at genuinely stupid people like me?

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 11:22 AM, Davide Sora said:

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't.

In fact the template I use has a 90° angle with the button,  but this serves to have plenty of material to remove during fitting. Then after the fitting following more or less the mentioned measures the angle becomes less than 90° ( I don't know how many degrees, I never measured it).

Observing perfect 90°angle could perhaps facilitate geometric calculations, but it would be a complication from a practical point of view when making the neck joint, an extra measure to be respected without real practical value.

1224439542_TalloneangoliDavideSorarid.thumb.jpg.01abd6fcfecab80c035df83f425dcd65.jpg

It's difficult for me to tell the mortice depths from a video. Do you increase the depth from about 3mm at the top to 4mm at the button?

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