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sospiri

String break angle 158 degrees? Where does that come from???

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2 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It's a tapered sliding lid, not a joint at all.

To understand a dovetail you just need to try making a few dovetailed drawers and try it for yourself. ;)

Re function, as I said the tapered element of the neck root is so shallow that it doesn't provide much strength, though it's definitely handy for controlling the fit. 

Ha....a tapered sliding lid??? So when it is referred to as a sliding dovetail that would be wrong as well? Or when we put in the slide plate, that would be a lid joint?  How about the back plate on french bows, would that be a tapered sliding lid plate joint?  If they are all refereed to as dovetails, that is incorrect?  it gets pretty silly Martin.

I have made dovetails most my life, and set necks most of my life, 

I understand you do not believe the dovetail on the neck provides much strength now (this is good, we are making progress), like I said try it yourself and you will see.

 

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Just now, David Burgess said:

Describing the neck joint as "a tapered sliding lid" is a new one, for me. ;)

The pearl slide and ebony backing on a bow frog is a tapered sliding lid.

A neck join is a flared tenon in my book, since it doesn't involve the cutting of a "dove's tail".

I'm not really complaining about violinmakers co-opting and bending the meaning of woodworking terms, I would just think it's worth acknowledging. 

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26 minutes ago, martin swan said:

The pearl slide and ebony backing on a bow frog is a tapered sliding lid.

A neck join is a flared tenon in my book, since it doesn't involve the cutting of a "dove's tail".

I'm not really complaining about violinmakers co-opting and bending the meaning of woodworking terms, I would just think it's worth acknowledging. 

dovetail.PNG.bf15d95b00390f8f621ef04e34fcd383.PNG

 

dovetail2.PNG.9e30719e722f9a2832d087a2b20fedc3.PNG

HMM....can we stop this now Martin.....these definitions are quite available..  

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Jerry you are confusing me with other contributors to this thread.

A dovetail joint is a very specific thing designed to withstand a great deal more stress than a neck joint, without the need for glue. It involves shaping the tenon and mortise elements.

It would be fair to say that a neck joint has some of the properties of a dovetail.

I think Delabo explained it well. maybe take issue with him/her for a while, I'm going for a bike ride.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

No, the button is the same plane as the block, no carving. The mortise is deeper towards the button than at the top level,  so the bottom of the mortise is not parallel to the ribs and therefore could not be at 90° with the button.  Plus I make a slight taper of 0.5 mm from the upper corners to the upper block on the back which  makes the button not at 90° with the rib in any case.  Too many angle variations make it difficult to identify an ideal reference plane, or at least a little difficult to calculate.  Better to focus on other key measures that are easily and accurately measurable.

I also make a taper of 1.5 mm on the top, which I believe inscribes me in the team of tilted tops.:lol:

What was the purpose of the original rib taper?

I wonder if it helped tonally with the original baroque neck?

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20 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Jerry you are confusing me with other contributors to this thread.

A dovetail joint is a very specific thing designed to withstand a great deal more stress than a neck joint, without the need for glue. It involves shaping the tenon and mortise elements.

 

 

No Martin, that is a quote from what you posted and the definitions are from the Oxford dictionary and the Websters dictionary....no where does it say anything about the stress limits....also, when we set necks, we certainly shape both the neck, which you refer to as the "tenon", and the mortise, which is in fact what we call the mortise.  Sorry Martin, it is the language.  It maybe outside of your definition frame of reference, but that does not make it untrue.  

Now can we move past the semantics and perhaps someone can give us numbers on just how much the tapered sliding tenon adds to the strength of the set?

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15 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

No Martin, that is a quote from what you posted and the definitions are from the Oxford dictionary and the Websters dictionary....no where does it say anything about the stress limits....also, when we set necks, we certainly shape both the neck, which you refer to as the "tenon", and the mortise, which is in fact what we call the mortise.  Sorry Martin, it is the language.  It maybe outside of your definition frame of reference, but that does not make it untrue.  

Now can we move past the semantics and perhaps someone can give us numbers on just how much the tapered sliding tenon adds to the strength of the set?

Too late Jerry, he's got a tailwind going up the old Bristol road. Ideal for a PB.

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40 minutes ago, sospiri said:

What was the purpose of the original rib taper?

I wonder if it helped tonally with the original baroque neck?

One way to look at taper and its function is that taper pre-loads the corpus such that when the strings are up, the instrument is static under load, rather than static at rest (which is what you have with a violin that has no rib taper of any kind and has no strings on)

As to instruments in baroque setup, they don't require any more "help" than instruments in modern setup as regards tone. A good fiddle is a good fiddle.

Edit: this "static under load" thing is an ideal, one that it probably never truly reached, because I wouldn't know how to measure it well enough to be certain. That said, trying to get there definitely provides benefits of the sound and response of a fiddle. My first one ever, my teacher had me make it without taper, set it up and trial it, then take it apart and put in the taper before trialing it again. Night and day. 

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2 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

One way to look at taper and it's function is that taper pre-loads the corpus such that when the strings are up, the instrument is static under load, rather than static at rest (which is what you have with a violin that has no rib taper of any kind and has no strings on)

As to instruments in baroque setup, they don't require any more "help" than instruments in modern setup as regards tone. A good fiddle is a good fiddle.

Can you explain a bit more please?

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59 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Its the definition that you are putting on the long established use of the word "dovetail" which is being misused.

Here is a picture of my early 18th century walnut bureau. It has very crude dovetails with shoulders characteristic of the period. When it was made circa 290 years ago it would have been described as having  dovetail jointed drawers. They are clearly very different from the flared mortise - sans shoulders of a modern violin.

 

rsz_dsc_0825.jpg

The dovetails on your drawers have a steeper angle than the dovetails on necks ;), which typically follow the taper of the fingerboard.

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1 hour ago, sospiri said:

What was the purpose of the original rib taper?

I wonder if it helped tonally with the original baroque neck?

 

33 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

One way to look at taper and its function is that taper pre-loads the corpus such that when the strings are up, the instrument is static under load, rather than static at rest (which is what you have with a violin that has no rib taper of any kind and has no strings on)

As to instruments in baroque setup, they don't require any more "help" than instruments in modern setup as regards tone. A good fiddle is a good fiddle.

Edit: this "static under load" thing is an ideal, one that it probably never truly reached, because I wouldn't know how to measure it well enough to be certain. That said, trying to get there definitely provides benefits of the sound and response of a fiddle. My first one ever, my teacher had me make it without taper, set it up and trial it, then take it apart and put in the taper before trialing it again. Night and day. 

I can't be sure either, but I agree on acoustic and also static benefits.

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4 hours ago, Urban Luthier said:

I'm quite familiar with Roger's articles ;). I Don't see any reason why a modern maker couldn't follow a variation of the  workflow employed by the ancients - in this case the neck is dovetailed to the rib garland rather than nailed to it. Then go about the workflow outlined by Roger in the Guarneri book to scribe the outline. The neck would need a notch of course to accept the top plate

That's what I do.

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45 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

Got money ridin' on it on Reddit.

You won then.

Go collect your winnings.

A dovetail template :lol:

index.jpg

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6 hours ago, Delabo said:

I must be a dimwit as I have read that article a couple of times and could not understand it.

It must be one of those things that does not make sense until its put into practice.

The difficult thing about the Amati type build method Hargrave describes is that its implications rip apart so many assumptions that are deeply embedded in most modern making.  And I beleive the implications go a bit further than Roger takes them.

If you take on the notion that standard current methods are more the children of Mirecourt than of Cremona, then you can consider that all the things we think we know about process and sequence might be wrong, at least for understanding historical process.

No half plate templates flipped around to impose equal outlines treble to bass and top to back.  Worse than that, if you don't let yourself impose symmetry and squareness on the sides, and if the outlines follow the sides, then the implication is that you don't get to design the outline ahead of time.  

And if you don't get to build by setting the outline first, how can you actually do copy work?

In a way, what Hargrave describes is a deep challenge to current norms.

 

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7 minutes ago, David Beard said:

The difficult thing about the Amati type build method Hargrave describes is that its implications rip apart so many assumptions that are deeply embedded in most modern making.  And I beleive the implications go a bit further than Roger takes them.

If you take on the notion that standard current methods are more the children of Mirecourt than of Cremona, then you can consider that all the things we think we know about process and sequence might be wrong, at least for understanding historical process.

No half plate templates flipped around to impose equal outlines treble to bass and top to back.  Worse than that, if you don't let yourself impose symmetry and squareness on the sides, and if the outlines follow the sides, then the implication is that you don't get to design the outline ahead of time.  

And if you don't get to build by setting the outline first, how can you actually do copy work?

In a way, what Hargrave describes is a deep challenge to current norms.

 

Exactly. And like you, this is how I choose to build. 

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7 hours ago, martin swan said:

 I will continue to put up a fight.

 

4 hours ago, martin swan said:

Well the dove symbolizes peace, but I think Jerry prefers to rip the tail out and poke it in someone's face!

Isn’t it hard to play the mighty warrior when whining about being poked with a feather?B)

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1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Thank god somebody is keeping score.......

Yes but Bill 's just a shit-stirrer :P

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with exactly - the tapered element of what you call the dovetail really doesn't offer much resistance. You say that for it to fail the top block would also have to fail but this happens all the time - these are very small and quite fragile bits of grain which can split off the cheeks of the top block with the greatest of ease. I'm sure you have seen your fair share of necks with bits of top block attached after a pullout.

For me I think it's a very elegant joint, but it's really a strong glue joint with a bit of added stability from the taper. The great benefit of the taper is that it allows fine fitting of the neck in that it all stay together while you're sighting up to the bridge position. You can keep taking it apart and putting it back together, and making minor modifications to how the neck's sitting. Davide's video illustrates this beautifully.

As for definitions of joints, I prefer serious woodworking books to Websters. If you like, I can send you a copy of an excellent book called "The Complete Dovetail". 

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7 hours ago, Delabo said:

I must be a dimwit as I have read that article a couple of times and could not understand it.

It must be one of those things that does not make sense until its put into practice.

The neck is nailed onto a rib assembly which has already been removed from the form.  Since the ribs are no longer on the form, but not yet attached to the plates, there is no way of knowing whether the neck is being nailed on exactly straight.

Later, when the plate outlines are taken from the ribs, the neck can be pushed to one side or the other to align with the plates. Since the neck is already attached to the ribs, this will tweak the rib outline, often making it asymmetric.

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