How much does J Bell having played the Guadagnini violin on Tarisio affect value?

[jacklinks]

For Lot 203 on Tarisio, how much is the value affected by Joshua Bell having played that violin as a young man? Not asking for an approximate value, but what approximate % (+ or -) could that affect the price?

[deans]

Hard to say, but I wouldn't think much. Maybe JB will buy it himself.

[AtlVcl]

18 hours ago, deans said:

Hard to say, but I wouldn't think much. Maybe JB will buy it himself.

Doubt that. Even one of the top guys only needs one fiddle (if he even owns the one he plays!)

[Pate Bliss]

I can picture it helping the price a lot.  Would Heifetz's fiddle be worth as much if it wasn't Heifetz's?

[matesic]

I should imagine most top flight fiddles have been through the hands of several fine players. With living violinists there may temporarily be some stardust attached but it's probably only truly iconic players like Heifetz, Kreisler, Oistrakh etc whose fingerprints will have a lasting effect on the price.

Wouldn't it be great, though, if every antique violin no matter how humble came with a documented history of who played it, what they played and where?

[Moroni Larson]

  

[A432]

Even one of the top guys only needs one fiddle

Not so. Top guys (at least Oistrakh, Heifetz, Kogan and Menuhin-level top guys) always traveled with a double case & two violins -- the (also top level) spare in case a seam opens, a string breaks or some other mishap occurs.

Heifetz'z spare was the "Dolphin" Strad; Oistrakh's another early Strad; Kogan's another early Del Gesu & Menuhin's was probably (or often) the Lord Wilton Del Gesu.

FWIW

[jezzupe]

my guess is that it would pad the price by about 10%...names become more important as time goes by in celebrity culture land, ask Yossi Dina.

[matesic]

2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

my guess is that it would pad the price by about 10%...names become more important as time goes by in celebrity culture land, ask Yossi Dina.

er, who? Never heard him play. Maybe you're thinking of Tossy Spivakovsky. Of course as time goes by most names fade into the mist.

[Herman West]

some time ago Musafia sold a (Hill?) case that had belonged to Bell, if I recall. The implication was the price was better because of the provenance of the case.

So it is to be expected this violin's price will reflect previous ownership.

[jezzupe]

8 hours ago, matesic said:

er, who? Never heard him play. Maybe you're thinking of Tossy Spivakovsky. Of course as time goes by most names fade into the mist.

Yossi Dina is a pawn broker who runs his business in Beverly Hills area. When the rich and famous get into secret or not so secret financial trouble, often times their spoils end up in his shop. From watches to jewelry to car's and yes musical instruments ,and he would be the first to tell you that "a name" can add lots of value to an object just because "so and so used to own it'. This generally does not apply to real estate, but objects, particularly personal objects that a celebrity owned , that can be verified, it adds great value to the object. A Hamilton watch is just a Hamilton watch, but a Hamilton watch that was owned by Elvis is something else. 

Now I suppose that classical music and our "stars" like Mr Bell, do not shine quite as annoyingly bright as popular culture, but, he's not chopped liver,either, is quite well known , so again , I'd guess at an extra 10%, maybe the celebrity thing does not apply in this case, but I think it does, else wise they would not have mentioned it.

Here is Yossi's site, he has stuff from 150$ to 10 mill and it's actually a  pretty good place to find nice gifts for under 1k that would cost way more new, let alone if your into big bucks items, look in the memorabilia section to get an idea of "celebrity value add on", he has one of Michael Jackson old jackets going for 75k, something you probably couldn't give away else wise, but perhaps after all the recent news about Mr Jackson will make it so Yossi will have to give it away too.

But then again he has a letter signed by Napleon who wasn't the greatest guy listed in the under 1000$ section, but that's just because he won't list the price.

 https://thedinacollection.com/

[matesic]

9 hours ago, Herman West said:

some time ago Musafia sold a (Hill?) case that had belonged to Bell, if I recall. The implication was the price was better because of the provenance of the case.

So it is to be expected this violin's price will reflect previous ownership.

I was going to say that in percentage terms I should expect the celebrity premium to be far less for the violin than for the case, but then I remembered Einstein's violin which sold for half a million. I guess it would depend on the relative wow factor of the owner as compared with the object.

[AtlVcl]

21 hours ago, A432 said:

Not so. Top guys (at least Oistrakh, Heifetz, Kogan and Menuhin-level top guys) always traveled with a double case & two violins -- the (also top level) spare in case a seam opens, a string breaks or some other mishap occurs.

 

I suppose that's true, strictly speaking, but then the question it begs is do Harrell, Ma, etc., travel with two cellos?

BTW, many years ago when Heifetz, Stern etc. were active, fiddles were a great deal cheaper, and I suppose they were often bought (by some players) as speculative investments, hoping a "golden" household name would drive up its price.

I know Yo-Yo doesn't own the Strad he plays, but presumably its value can't be hurt by the fact he's made a first-class living with it for a very long time.

[A432]

It is my impression, FWIW, that he typically plays the "Sleeping Beauty" Montagnana (named "Petunia by a grade school girl in Utah as I recall) because it is much easier to manage. Certainly more forgiving.

Not long after he got the use of the Duport Strad, I recall him doing a TV broadcast, playing it in the second movement of the Brahms op. 108 (arranged) with Contanza What's-her-name (Rice ? she was a high government official -- secretary of state or something).

It was excruciating. He was playing it the way he played the Montagnana, and everything he did with it backfired. Experiences like that are, believe it or not, typical of people playing newly-gotten (and borrowed-for-the-occasion) Strads. They are completely different animals, and incredibly demanding of exactly "right" (for them) technique.

When Piatigorsky got the Batta Strad, he kept it a home for over a year, getting to know its ins and outs -- its resources and how to manage them -- before he ever appeared in public with it. For the above reason.

FWIW

PS: As I understand it, instrument purchases, for professionals, are tax-deductable business expenses. So income tax refunds up front, and only capital gains taxes at the back end. Sweet deal.

[AtlVcl]

1) Yo-Yo owns the Montagnana, but is loaned the use of the Duport, presumably for as long as he wants. I seriously doubt he has any reason to want to buy it.

2) Your tax knowledge is only partly right, and always subject to change. If you leave your instrument to a family member (for instance...) instead of selling it at the/your end, it's inherited at a stepped-up value for tax purposes.
And then any tax deductions are only valuable if they exceed the standard deduction, which is now doubled. This means less paperwork for a lot of us, and no Federal taxes to the working poor. 

3) Kind of a shame the Batta will never come up for sale in my lifetime. It would bring an entertaining price.

4) Cool username. Presumably you don't play in a modern American orchestra.

[Herman West]

5 she's called Susan Rice

[violinnewb]

18 hours ago, AtlVcl said:

I suppose that's true, strictly speaking, but then the question it begs is do Harrell, Ma, etc., travel with two cellos?

BTW, many years ago when Heifetz, Stern etc. were active, fiddles were a great deal cheaper, and I suppose they were often bought (by some players) as speculative investments, hoping a "golden" household name would drive up its price.

I know Yo-Yo doesn't own the Strad he plays, but presumably its value can't be hurt by the fact he's made a first-class living with it for a very long time.

Anne Akiko Meyers has at least 2 nice fiddles, and at one time had three.

[palousian]

9 hours ago, Herman West said:

5 she's called Susan Rice

Nope.  Condoleezza Rice, former US Secretary of State, is also a pretty good pianist and performed with Ma in that concert.

Susan Rice was a National Security Adviser under Obama, and doesn't play the piano, though she is apparently an avid tennis player.

[Three13]

I suspect that the provenance premium is inversely proportional to the base value of the object being sold. For instance, in the world of guitars, a vintage 1959 Les Paul that might retail for $250K is unlikely to bring a huge premium because it was owned by Joe Perry or Slash, but Jerry Garcia's $800 1980s Takamine acoustic managed to bring in $65K plus the juice a while ago.

Obviously, certain celebrities (or legendary instruments) will increase the premium - it helps if they're dead. Josh Bell is relatively young and seems pretty healthy to me, so I'm guessing the premium won't make anyone's head spin. 

That being said, maybe comparing guitars and violins is an apples/oranges sort of thing.

[Herman West]

13 hours ago, palousian said:

Nope.  Condoleezza Rice, former US Secretary of State, is also a pretty good pianist and performed with Ma in that concert.

Susan Rice was a National Security Adviser under Obama, and doesn't play the piano, though she is apparently an avid tennis player.

Damn, yeah, you're right. Anyway in my view it's admirable she's playing the piano and is not shy about it, in the otherwise pretty low-culture political environment.

[vathek]

I'm tempted to bring up the war criminal thing but I won't

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, vathek said:

I'm tempted to bring up the war criminal thing but I won't

And yet even so, you did ...

[A432]

I suspect that if the city of Genoa ever decided to "de-acquisition" Paganini's Cannone Del Gesu, its price would set an all-time record.

[AtlVcl]

7 hours ago, vathek said:

I'm tempted to bring up the war criminal thing but I won't

Good.

[Jeny Mahon]

Back to Mr. Bell though...

That fiddle belt buckle is everything!