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Suzyq1984

Violin id

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I'd say that the chances are that it's a Saxon trade fiddle, made in Markneukirchen by E.R. Schmidt & Co., and a very nice one.  The signature is (or supposed to be) that of E. R. Schmidt. 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328975-er-schmidt-violins/

Treat it with care, they aren't cheap these days. :)

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IMO this has nothing to do with ER Schmidt, what doesn't matter much anyway, because they are usually Saxon trade fiddles not the one or the other. Fine grade ER Schmidts are looking much more refined and bearing usually an ERS brand and very unlikely handsigned..

There must be several millions of Schmidt families in the german speaking countries (including N America;)), and Markneukirchen had surely a dozen of Schmidt companies. ER Schmidt wasn't "& Co." but a family owned firm, and the signature isn't right for Schmidt, rather something like a salesman's label, maybe "CR Semmert". Hard to decipher, because all the Kurrent "m", "n" or "e" can look nearly identical. But I can't see an "h" or "d" nor "I" with a point above it.

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24 minutes ago, Blank face said:

IMO this has nothing to do with ER Schmidt, what doesn't matter much anyway, because they are usually Saxon trade fiddles not the one or the other. Fine grade ER Schmidts are looking much more refined and bearing usually an ERS brand and very unlikely handsigned..

There must be several millions of Schmidt families in the german speaking countries (including N America;)), and Markneukirchen had surely a dozen of Schmidt companies. ER Schmidt wasn't "& Co." but a family owned firm, and the signature isn't right for Schmidt, rather something like a salesman's label, maybe "CR Semmert". Hard to decipher, because all the Kurrent "m", "n" or "e" can look nearly identical. But I can't see an "h" or "d" nor "I" with a point above it.

The (printed part of) the label is in English, so that one can almost presume it was stuck in in America by some wholesaler "genuine when bearing ??? original signature" doesn't sound very Saxon, although the violin would seem to be.

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33 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The (printed part of) the label is in English, so that one can almost presume it was stuck in in America

Even the Markneukirchener of the early 20th century were able to speak and write English, maybe better than many today;), and so it could have been stuck in there. "Only genuine when..." is an old merchandising phrase, compare "Nur echt mit der Goldkante" (curtain advertising) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADO_Goldkante

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Even the Markneukirchener of the early 20th century were able to speak and write English, maybe better than many today;), and so it could have been stuck in there. "Only genuine when..." is an old merchandising phrase, compare "Nur echt mit der Goldkante" (curtain advertising) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADO_Goldkante

It's been established here before that the Markneukirchen firms began labeling in English for export about as soon as the legal requirements appeared in the UK and the USA.  For what you said in the earlier post about the Schmidt firm, go read the thread I linked to.  Any stamp will be on the inside where we can't see it in the OP photos.  :)

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8 hours ago, Violadamore said:

It's been established here before that the Markneukirchen firms began labeling in English for export about as soon as the legal requirements appeared in the UK and the USA.  For what you said in the earlier post about the Schmidt firm, go read the thread I linked to.  Any stamp will be on the inside where we can't see it in the OP photos.  :)

We had another more detailled thread about ER Schmidt recently in the auction thread. My point was that this doesn't look like a top range ERS which would be branded and that neither the label nor the signature have anything to do with this particular firm.

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:24 AM, Tom O said:

So many folks on MN write so well about violin id, but where are the posts about violin ego?

:lol:

nice one

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:24 PM, Tom O said:

So many folks on MN write so well about violin id, but where are the posts about violin ego?

Usually associated with the ones involving violin libido.  https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/327347-locked-and-deleted-threads/ :ph34r::lol:

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21 hours ago, Blank face said:

Just for the records, because I commented on this topic: I had a look what's written up about the ER Schmidt firm, and in fact it was named ER Schmidt & Co. untill 1903, when Ernst Reinhold took it over in his exclusive personal ownership. This "& Co." was unfamiliar to me, but it means that the instrument was sold by the Schmidts before 1903. Two of his sons established a "Bros.Schmidt/Ohio" firm in 1908 which probably organized a lot of the export business.

OTOH I don't think that the Schmidt label doesn't mean much more than that it was distributed by this firm like any other Saxon trade violin and shouldn't be confused with the more rare and much better than average worked ERS branded top range instruments.

 

I copied the reply from Blankie, given above, from another current related thread where he cleverly inserted it. 

I see that you finally went and read the thread I linked above.  ;)  I feel that the grade of the violin under discussion won't be established one way or the other until somebody takes a look inside and reports back.  You can't see a Schmidt stamp through the F-holes without a scope.  The fiddle looks very nice to me, and IMHO, an expert appraisal would be required to assign a value.

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

 

I copied the reply from Blankie, given above, from another current related thread where he cleverly inserted it.  

I see that you finally went and read the thread I linked above.  ;)  I feel that the grade of the violin under discussion won't be established one way or the other until somebody takes a look inside and reports back.  You can't see a Schmidt stamp through the F-holes without a scope.  The fiddle looks very nice to me, and IMHO, an expert appraisal would be required to assign a value.

Nice that I'm regarded as clecerly, but once more I think you missed the point.

IMO it seems to be clear now that Jacob was probably right assuming that the obscure label was inserted in America, because we don't see such at ER Schmidt instruments in Germany, usually something like "Schmidts Standard" or "Tartini" inserted into the "usual"; my answer in the other thread was directed to the person who inspected it, telling that he has seen similar before and assumed a date after 1910. Also the handwriting appears not to be an original germ, but maybe some American copying more or less clueless a Kurrent signature he was unable to deceipher the right way.

I personally won't bother to decide if an instrument like the OP was made short time before or after 1900, and one can find the same with a whole lot of different wholesaler labels, Schmidt, Schuster, Müller whatever, also Lowendall or the notorious Bros. Wolff. They are just cottage industry Dutzendware of a more or less higher grade.

Furthermore I'm thinking that it's useless to search inside for an ERS brand. Even if there is one, it won't make the violin better than it is right now. The high grade ERS instruments are, like I told before and in other threads, of a very different quality, comparable with the best EH Roths, and the few I've seen had a good deep red-golden varnish, half cut bottom pins and deeply fluted ff, not to mention a high level of craftmanship at other features like scroll. They weren't labelled, just branded only, and the only of this kind  I found online is at the Givens shop https://www.givensviolins.com/inventory/violins/violins-8001-12000/e-reinhold-schmidt-guarnerius-markneukirchen/, even the Cozio archive shows just the usual.

So it hasn't changed anything of importance or what should be hidden and you might have overestimated my cleverness (though I feel really flattered now:)).

 

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