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not telling

Request for information from Davide Sora

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My Italian is just barely sufficient to read the Casini book -- it's actually quite engaging. :) 

Not sure I should be trusted with a full translation, but here's an overview for @not telling and a basic translation of some subheadings + the content in them so you can direct your translator appropriately. The bits about making linoxyn are pages 23-24 starting from "come seccare l'olio" ("how to dry the oil"), and then again with an updated method on p. 38 "la preparazione della linossina" ("the preparation of linoxyn")

Page numbers are the ones from the pdf linked earlier.

Stuff before p 17 is an intro from the publisher. The book has 3 parts: one semi-autobiography from 1957, an addendum from 1969, and a final letter from 1983.

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Part 1: the story of Casini's life and his process of discovery, and then some notes on his "secrets"

p17 - 22: Le vernici degli antichi liutai = The varnishes of the ancient luthiers.  Content: the story of how he discovered these particular methods using his dad's recipe. "I am a luthier, son of a luthier, and just as every self-respecting luthier has his own secrets about varnish, so I have mine to give to whomever wants it..." 

p. 23 Come seccare l'olio = how to dry the oil. Content: how to make linoxyn, brief discussion of different resins, a bit about how the properties of resin and linoxyn should together render them a good combo for varnish

p. 24 Differences in solubility/transparency of different resins in linoxyn, a couple different recipes (1:1) and the relative weirdness of the resulting substances 

p.24 Si pesa la linossina/a freddo ci vuole una settimana  = it takes a week if cold. Content: saponification rates and how to ...saponify?... linoxyn without heating it.

p.25 Per operare a caldo = to do the same with heating. Content: the detailed procedure for how to cook varnish

p.26 Per l'estetica e la voce = for aesthetics and voice. Content: his favorite recipes and their results.

p.26 Un consiglio per la verniciatura = a piece of advice for varnishing. Content: details on applying the varnish.

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Part 2: A more chemistry-ish explanation of oils and resins and what happens during the process of making varnish

p. 29 Idrocarburo non saturo = unsaturated..hydrocarbons? Content: the point of drying oil is to oxygenate the unsaturated hydrocarbons in the fatty acids that comprise 70% of oil.

p.30 Tre metodi per rendere solubile la linossina = three methods of dissolving linoxyn Content: ...three methods of dissolving linoxyn. 1) leave it for a long time in alcohol, 2) saponify it with soda, 3) cook it in an autoclave with a substance of the same sort aka resin. The next three sections describe first the soda, then curing, then the alcohol, and then cooking.

p.32 Il concetto che il calore facilita le combinazioni = The idea that heat makes combining easier. Content: a discussion of the background chemistry behind why it's faster to cook the varnish.

p. 33 Il vero segreto = the true secret. Content: some musing on how the ancient luthiers might have done it, and then, in the next section, what the ones in Venice might have done.

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Part 3: Some technical notes and comparisons between methods

p.36 La linossina = linoxyn. A review of the previous works, mostly. Then follows again a description of the alcohol version. 

p. 38 La preparazione della linossina = preparing linoxyn, Content: a more detailed version of the instructions from 1957. New developments: one of his "followers" (he puts it in quotes, that's not me!) had the idea of replacing waterproofed wooden trays with cheap enameled kitchen lids. Brilliant! Also, his best beloved tool is a ...meatchopper? (tritacarne) and he now recommends several iterations of meatchopping and redrying the half-cured linoxyn. 

p. 38 Dalla linossina alla vernice = From linoxyn to varnish. Content: another description of soapifying linoxyn with soda, and then how to mix it with the resin to make varnish. Another discussion of recipes and different resins, and finally ATTENTION, store the varnish dry.

p.40 Final musings: he's been wondering how the ancients ever figured out how to make this varnish, given that it takes years and years to form naturally...and finally thought of the Egyptians, who had flax plants, and who varnished their mummies, and then left them there for 4-5 thousand years. "I like to think of the ancient Egyptians..."

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Hope that helps. Apologies to all Italians for the mangling of your language! Please let me know of any bad mistranslations and I'll fix em...

Edited by Avey

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Reminds me of the colophony cooking idea, where the colophony is cooked in order to imitate 300 years oxidation. I estimated according to the RGT rule that 12 hours cooking at 150 degrees may be sufficient if the layer is thin enough. Anybody tried that?

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1 hour ago, Michael Szyper said:

Reminds me of the colophony cooking idea, where the colophony is cooked in order to imitate 300 years oxidation. I estimated according to the RGT rule that 12 hours cooking at 150 degrees may be sufficient if the layer is thin enough. Anybody tried that?

Yes, the concept is similar, the only objection that could be made in both cases is that the effect of time on the varnish could be different from the effects on the individual components, but who knows, it would take a test few hundred years long:P

Just to know, what is RGT rule?

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15 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Just to know, what is RGT rule?

Oh, I noticed that it is only a German term, it is the rule Jim Bress mentioned in the previous post regarding temperature and reaction speed.

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6 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

Oh, I noticed that it is only a German term, it is the rule Jim Bress mentioned in the previous post regarding temperature and reaction speed.

  Reaktionsgeschwindigkeit? 

Amazing language, for me it's almost like reading Japanese....:lol:

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27 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

  Reaktionsgeschwindigkeit? 

Amazing language, for me it's almost like reading Japanese....:lol:

germans are the world leaders regarding word length and complexity. Try that one: Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz

That is not a joke but a german law until 2014 which regulated the responsibility transfer of supervision tasks regarding beef meat labeling (did anybody understand what I wrote? At least I would not)

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I have to apologize, I had not checked the pdf that I linked but now I did it and I saw that it is not complete, in fact it stops at page 39 and shows only the part in Italian. I noticed that my book has 63 pages, the missing pages in the pdf are the translations in English, French and German of the last chapter entitled "1983 Florence, letter" which basically summarizes and updates the various procedures described in the bookThis letter enters less in the descriptive details but I think it may already be enough to get a fairly accurate idea.

To remedy my oversight I insert below the photos of the pages of the English translation of the letter. 

751471178_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag41.thumb.jpg.651fd1dead9f2d83e65aba07d3bce9a4.jpg1641963210_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag42.thumb.jpg.c877d95e2ed005e727e1784730db2964.jpg604957387_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag43.thumb.jpg.eff48f8d98fc46b2b4eaabd7e1ebe6ad.jpg22049759_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag44.thumb.jpg.d3b0e81c75a206e341fd21156b31c1ec.jpg1464822400_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag45.thumb.jpg.6aec05269037c3698a554a3c8f0e0c6c.jpg186552374_LapoCasini_1983Florence_Letter_pag46.thumb.jpg.e4c21c680ac684ceac78490d7ed6b3dd.jpg

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That was an interesting read,  thanks for the English!   Now I want to try to make some. 

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Yes, definitely. Thanks for the overview translation, Avey, and to Davide for the full letter in English and for all of the explanation from everyone about some of the science relevant to this type of varnish. I'm curious about trying the second way described first, the fast way. Just to see, and experiment. Davide, you have never tried making the alcohol solution with the soda added to accelerate the reaction? It looks like it would be ready in a month, can that be right? I need to reread everything. Alcohol with soda always accelerated reactions for me, so...seems like a good first step. 

My husband says thanks very much.

And thanks from me too. This thread has been another great reminder of how supportive and collaborative this community can be.

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11 hours ago, not telling said:

Yes, definitely. Thanks for the overview translation, Avey, and to Davide for the full letter in English and for all of the explanation from everyone about some of the science relevant to this type of varnish. I'm curious about trying the second way described first, the fast way. Just to see, and experiment. Davide, you have never tried making the alcohol solution with the soda added to accelerate the reaction? It looks like it would be ready in a month, can that be right? I need to reread everything. Alcohol with soda always accelerated reactions for me, so...seems like a good first step. 

My husband says thanks very much.

And thanks from me too. This thread has been another great reminder of how supportive and collaborative this community can be.

I had tried with alcohol in the early days but I was not able to dissolve the linoxin, but perhaps it was due to the fact that it wasn't quite oxidized yet, I don't remember the details well (30 years ago....). I had left a bit of linoxin in alcohol just to see what happened, but it didn't melt so much so I abandoned the experiment and didn't try to add soda.

It might be worth trying.

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11 hours ago, not telling said:

 Alcohol with soda always accelerated reactions for me, so...seems like a good first step.

I was also amazed that it didn't work, maybe you should try adding some rock & roll as well

 

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