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not telling

Request for information from Davide Sora

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Since Davide is so generous with his time and information on these forums, I would consider it disingenuous to pm him over something that others must be curious about too. So this is my pm to Davide, sort of, but anyone with good information to share please do. 

Davide, I would very much appreciate your help. These are my dear husband's questions, but he can't internet well enough to ask you himself. He says hi though, and thanks, he has watched all of your videos at least twice.

Firstly, can you share the pages of the Casini book where the linoxin process or recipe was found? We know someone who will translate a few pages, but not the book in its entirety unfortunately.

Is there a commercial source of the polymerized oil?

Where do you obtain your casein? 

Thanks for any information you have shared and are willing to share.

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I have watched all his videos multiple times also,  they are awesome!      And would also like to try the polymerized oil varnish that he uses but it takes a long time for the oil reach that stage so if he answers here that would be great.   

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I had this conversation with Davide via PM about a year ago.  If someone can tell me how to make it accessible to everyone, it would save Davide some time and I am guessing that he won't mind, given his incredible generosity.

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16 minutes ago, Roger Hill said:

I had this conversation with Davide via PM about a year ago.  If someone can tell me how to make it accessible to everyone, it would save Davide some time and I am guessing that he won't mind, given his incredible generosity.

Copy and paste? Highlight all text, ctrlC, place text in clipboard, repeat process through the conversation, then paste from clipboard into this thread. I know it'll take a bit to do this and thank you!!!  

 

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Hi not telling,

Please, bring my thanks to your husband for the patience he clearly showed by watching all my videos....:o

Here you can find a downloadable pdf of Lapo Casini's book on linoxyn varnish :

https://archive.org/details/verniceliutailapocasini/page/n1

I do not make my varnish exactly like he says (he recommends using copal, instead I use seedlac) but it is certainly valid for making linoxin and a great base from which I started.

Another substantial difference of my varnish is in the linoxin / resin proportions, he says 1: 1 (I tried it and I do not recommend it, too much thermoplasticity) while I use about 1: 4 (1 part linoxin and 4 parts resin).

Regarding the availability of linoxyn for sale, I am not aware of any stores that sell it but I know someone had found it in Japan but I don't know if in shops or from someone who make and sold it privately. I see if I can find more precise information and in case I let you know, perhaps Andreas Preuss could help us in case he had any more information about some Japanese store?

For casein I had initially bought it in powder in a paint store here in Cremona, and more recently from Kremer

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/mediums-binders-und-glues/water-soluble-binders/mediums-und-natural-gums/2083/casein

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1 hour ago, Roger Hill said:

I had this conversation with Davide via PM about a year ago.  If someone can tell me how to make it accessible to everyone, it would save Davide some time and I am guessing that he won't mind, given his incredible generosity.

It's OK for me, I don't mind^_^

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Davide maybe I missed it in your videos but what do you use the casein for?   Is it a sealing coat for the ground?  

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Davide,

I have written down the recipe and would like to try it on some samples. Can you tell me what is the ratio of water to calcium hydroxide (lime water)?

I have calcium hydroxide in powder form. I also have pit lime from Kremer.

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3 minutes ago, MikeC said:

Davide maybe I missed it in your videos but what do you use the casein for?   Is it a sealing coat for the ground?  

I call it sealer, but more accurately I think it is a sizing. It's the first thing I apply on bare wood (after having colored it in the UV box) but it doesn't have to form a real surface layer, just coat (seal?) the fibers and the cavities to "waterproof" them and avoid the penetration in depth of the subsequent layers.

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5 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Davide,

I have written down the recipe and would like to try it on some samples. Can you tell me what is the ratio of water to calcium hydroxide (lime water)?

I have calcium hydroxide in powder form. I also have pit lime from Kremer.

I think is a saturated solution (I think....:unsure:) that is, I put a generous amount of calcium hydroxide in the water so that it remains a conspicuous non-dissolved residue, I let it settle until the surface water layer becomes clear, then I use only this clear part. It should be what is called lime water. I made a little jar in 2013 and still use it. I tink you can use pit lime simply adding some distilled water to it and decanting for some time.

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Wow, thanks for all of this. I hope Andreas "Perus"es this thread, because a faster way to produce linoxin would be amazing. 

I should be able to look through the book and figure out what I'm looking at, and I'll do that for him. It's very interesting about the different ratios that you have found effective, and it takes lots of trial and error out of everything to know what you are doing, but he wants to understand the original recipe too. 

And Kremer for casein...awesome.

Davide, regarding these videos...some he has seen much more than twice. I'll catch him watching you take tiny, tiny chips off of a small area for 10 minutes and he is riveted, genuinely excited, and then he presses repeat on the video. I've seen this happen. It may be some sort of mental disorder. Just kidding, all of those videos are great. It's not just what you are doing, but how. There couldn't be a more helpful resource.

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Thanks E.  That's one of the few videos I haven't seen before.

   NT  I'm like your hubby,  I watch those videos over and over,  especially the plate carving ones.  :D  and I agree hopefully Andreas will post a faster way to make linoxin if there is one. 

My thoughts are, apply a thin coat of linseed oil to a large pan or sheet, let it get plenty of UV for a few days then repeat until a thick layer is built up.  Would that work? 

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1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

I think is a saturated solution (I think....:unsure:) that is, I put a generous amount of calcium hydroxide in the water so that it remains a conspicuous non-dissolved residue, I let it settle until the surface water layer becomes clear, then I use only this clear part. It should be what is called lime water. I made a little jar in 2013 and still use it. I tink you can use pit lime simply adding some distilled water to it and decanting for some time.

That clears it up. Thanks!

https://learning-center.homesciencetools.com/article/making-limewater-solution-science-lesson/

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Varnish Recipe

 2 members active in this conversation (including you)
  1. Davide Sora
    Davide Sora
    Read: 4 hours ago
  2. Roger Hill
    Read: Just now
  3.  
  1.  

 

Hi Davide:

Enjoy your videos and advise immensely.  Thank you for all you contribute.  One thing I want to try is your varnish recipe.  Where do you get linoxyn?  Only idea I've had is to dissolve old linoleum in alcohol, but god knows what harmful contaminants you introduce. Any advice or sources would be appreciated.  Thanks,

Roger Hill

  •  

Hi Roger,

 

unfortunately I do not believe that linoxyn can be found for sale in any store, the only option is to make it yourself.

 

It is a rather slow process, but once it is done it will last indefinitely, improving its characteristics with aging.

 
You have to let the linseed oil oxidize and polymerize in thin layer (preferably cooked oil to speed up the process a little)
 

with time it will darken a lot and will naturally become soluble in alcohol and ready to be used in alcohol varnish.

 
To accelerate the process, after the initial polymerization (after a few months, when liquid oil will no longer be present but the linoxyn not yet soluble in alcohol) there is the possibility of saponifying it with sodium carbonate or caustic soda to separate from glycerine, then neutralizing it with an acid to make it coagulate again.
 

The resulting product will be soluble in alcohol and after a short maturing it will be possible to use it.

I made mine with the natural process because with the chemical process there is a risk that chemical agents will remain as contaminants inside the linoxyn, and I prefer to avoid this potential problem.

 

I was told that even put the polymerized oil in alcohol for several months might work to make it soluble, I had tried this with a small quantity but it did not work at all.....<_<

 

I am not a chemist so I stick to the natural method, perhaps with better knowledge of chemistry it would be possible to find a faster system to obtain it.

 

Moreover, my idea was to get a product as similar as possible to the one present in very old oil varnishes, which in fact have the characteristic of becoming very sensitive to alcohol.

In my opinion the advantage of this varnish is that after a few months it has already completely matured, while the oil ones require a period of many years to become stable, distorting the initial perceptions on the acoustic performance of the instruments a few months from the painting

 
The disadvantage is that the application especially of colored layers is more problematic (like all alcohol varnish) than a "normal" oil varnish.....

 

 

  •  

Thank you, Davide.  Was afraid that there would be no sources other than DIY, couldn't find anything with Google searches.  Guess I better get started if I am to try it in this lifetime............:D

  •  

 

I am polymerizing about 400 g of oil right now to experiment and see how much weight increases with oxygen absorption (out of curiosity). This is the starting point, in this case cold pressed oil (not cooked) :

5a9ec9171c33a_Oliodilinospremutoafreddo1rid.jpg.8fc3b9bb40d3ab3b45dd68cb271d124c.jpg

First skin that has formed after about two weeks :
5a9ec90c0a509_DSC_9101Pellicolalinossinarid.jpg.c6a03eb325024bd9f89aa8c3a48513ee.jpg

 

This is how it looks after about two months, moving the skins that are gradually formed and exposing new oil to the absorption of oxygen, but I did everything in one container only (to record weight accurately), if I spread it in larger surfaces in more container it would take much less time to get to this stage (not yet soluble and with still liquid oil present).

5a9ec67b58039_DSC_9940rid.jpg.9828ac8bbb6b833d0b64dab8a9022cd8.jpg

But it is a long-term experiment, I'm not in a hurry......:)

This is the finished product I'm now using in my varnish (30 years old.....):o:)

Linoxyn.jpg.a19ec2712dfb1f7a42ab995398a4130b.jpg

  •  

Thank you, Davide.  In 30 years, I'll be 106.  I'll probably end up trying mine before it is really ready.....:D  Would putting it in the oven occasionally speed things along?  I'll try it just to see.  Do I need artists grade linseed oil, or will the hardware store product (Contains some dryers, I believe) be worth trying alongside some of the artists product?  Thanks again for all the help you provide me and everyone else.  Greatly appreciated and better that what can be obtained from any book I have ever seen.

Roger

  •  

What made me wonder about the oven bit was this thread started by Ben Conover years ago.  I don't recall you posting back then.  You might find it interesting:

 

  •  

My actual linoxyn is from artist grade cooked oil, probably some siccative was insìde this oil (I do not know, but it's likely).

I keep the containers you see in the photos on a radiator so heating may speed up chemical reaction, not tried an oven but maybe may work if you keep temperature not very high, but do not know how much.

You don't really need 30 years, If I remember correctly I start using it after about 5 or 6 years, but I noted that with time it become less sticky and more stable, but the difference from 5 to 30 years is not much in terms of elasticity.

Thanks for the links, I missed that topic of Ben Conover but in 2011 I wasn't a "maestronetter" yet.....

  •  

Thanks again, Davide.  I am a classical music lover, retired from science, burning to understand how things work and I am awed by the work I see from you and a half-dozen other makers.  Were Stradivari, Joseph Guarneri and a half dozen of their contemporaries with us today, they would be hard pressed to compete with today's living makers making new violins.  Incredibly impressive.

  •  

 

Perhaps if we had lived in the times of Stradivari we would have been less pressed by the competition among makers in order to emerge and we would not have reached the levels we have today.

Nowadays it is certainly more difficult to achieve your own style, but the information we have available is much higher and this is very helpful and a big advantage.

Thanks so much for your appreciation.:)

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2 hours ago, not telling said:

Wow, thanks for all of this. I hope Andreas "Perus"es this thread, because a faster way to produce linoxin would be amazing. 

I should be able to look through the book and figure out what I'm looking at, and I'll do that for him. It's very interesting about the different ratios that you have found effective, and it takes lots of trial and error out of everything to know what you are doing, but he wants to understand the original recipe too. 

And Kremer for casein...awesome.

Davide, regarding these videos...some he has seen much more than twice. I'll catch him watching you take tiny, tiny chips off of a small area for 10 minutes and he is riveted, genuinely excited, and then he presses repeat on the video. I've seen this happen. It may be some sort of mental disorder. Just kidding, all of those videos are great. It's not just what you are doing, but how. There couldn't be a more helpful resource.

Yes, I am reading this thread. Concerning linoxin readily available in Japan I don't currently know about any source. I would need to do some research.

In the past I have made the Casini varnish and found it not too difficult to make my own linoxin. However o had a very strong UV-C lamp at hand which certainly helped to speed up the oxidation process.

 

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Good news, I heard my colleague who told me about the linoxin bought in Japan (he is a Japanese who lives and works here in Cremona) and gave me the address of the japanese store that sells linoxin : http://www.nlinoxin.co.jp/

Bad news, he also told me that linoxin he bought does not work well because it remains too soft and even after three years of exposure to air to let it polimerize further it still remains unusable due to its excessive softness.  He assumes that these sellers do not have enough experience with varnish for violin but who knows, maybe now they have improved their product.:rolleyes:

Indeed, looking at the linoxin on the seller's website (I can only look at photos because it's written in Japanese only:(the color in the jar is very pale and the appearance is like marmalade while mine is very dark and almost solid but still elastic, as you can see in my last photo kindly posted by Roger Hill and in this video :

I have no idea what causes the difference, but I think it's because they got linoxin with a chemical treatment (saponification) directly on the liquid oil and so it's still a non-polymerized and non-oxidized substance, but not being a chemist I'm already going too far with conjectures;)

 

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What about dust? How can you control in favor of oxidation vs rancidity? I am surprised personally to see the containers apparently sitting out permanently, without even being covered.

Davide, what do you think about linseed oil sitting in a lightbox under UV-C? I don't even know if I can buy those. They're supposedly dangerous. But if I could. 

Unfortunately even 5 years feels like forever right now, there's the impatience of not wanting to wait just to experiment. And if it's amazing...and yes, we must assume so...well...he'll just have to make several gallons. So it better work. I'm not kidding. Say he spends $700 on oil and if it just goes rotten? I would be so pissed. At myself for offering any encouragement to him, not at you. You're great.

As far as the actual process...what is that? Do you wash the oil first?  You said there are possibly additives of some variety. The oil may be cooked first, then you heat it constantly on a low temperature over time, correct? What oil brand is this? 

Too bad about commercial linoxin. 

And wow Roger Hill, thank you for sharing that conversation. There are new insights there.

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2 hours ago, DarylG said:

Claudio Rampini described a "quick" method for making linoxyn a while back. Here is the link:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/317231-time-to-make-varnish/

 

2 hours ago, not telling said:

Great thread. Thanks a bunch. It didn't show up in my search results, or I just didn't see it.

I had also missed this thread, but the system indicated by Claudio Rampini (which I know very well) is certainly appropriate. Drying the oil on  sheets is actually an industrial system that was used for the production of linoleum, where they used sheets up to 40 m long:o

However, I think that significantly speeding up the process is not really feasible, as you can certainly gain some months but I have the impression that in the end the polymerization and oxidation process is the one that matters most and will still require some years. Perhaps using UV can accelerate oxidation too, but then the electricity bills of years of lit UV lamps must be taken into account:D

 

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1 hour ago, not telling said:

What about dust? How can you control in favor of oxidation vs rancidity? I am surprised personally to see the containers apparently sitting out permanently, without even being covered.

Davide, what do you think about linseed oil sitting in a lightbox under UV-C? I don't even know if I can buy those. They're supposedly dangerous. But if I could. 

Unfortunately even 5 years feels like forever right now, there's the impatience of not wanting to wait just to experiment. And if it's amazing...and yes, we must assume so...well...he'll just have to make several gallons. So it better work. I'm not kidding. Say he spends $700 on oil and if it just goes rotten? I would be so pissed. At myself for offering any encouragement to him, not at you. You're great.

As far as the actual process...what is that? Do you wash the oil first?  You said there are possibly additives of some variety. The oil may be cooked first, then you heat it constantly on a low temperature over time, correct? What oil brand is this? 

Too bad about commercial linoxin. 

And wow Roger Hill, thank you for sharing that conversation. There are new insights there.

Dust is not a problem, since when I dissolve the linoxin in alcohol before putting it in the varnish I filter it with lab grade filter paper which completely eliminates it.

As for the problem of the oil becoming rancid, I have always thought that linseed oil cannot go rancid at all, but maybe I'm wrong and I was just lucky.

When I started making linoxin in the eighties I knew almost nothing about linseed oil and didn't even know about the possibility of washing it (there was no Maestronet then)  so I used the oil that I found in my grandfather's warehouse that had a flooring company and used it as a finish for wooden floors, then I discovered that the brand was one of the best of the time, I think that oil dated back to the 70s at the latest. It was cooked oil, which almost certainly in those years foresaw the addition of siccatives, but I cannot say with certainty.

  About drying the oil, keeping it at a higher temperature accelerates the chemical processes and therefore it is good, but to use very high temperatures (like ovens) it would be better to know well what you are doing, if you do not want to take too many risks i think it is better to limit yourself to the sun or radiators and eventually keep it in an elevated position which is the warmest area of the room, as recommended also in the book by Lapo Casini.  He also recommends keeping it in the dark because in this way it darkens more while with strong light the color should be lightened,  as I've always assumed based on what I've read but never really verified.

This is the brand of oil I used, but I don't think it still exists. However I think that any good quality linseed oil works fine.

Davide Sora - Linseed Oil used for linoxin making

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Damnit, if I had even remotely imagined that it would have aroused so much interest, I would had made a lot more linoxin in the eighties, now I would have become rich by selling it by the gram.....:D:lol:

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On chemical reactions rate, the two most important factors ( in this context) would be surface area and temperature. Both were mentioned, forgive me for not having time to reread which posts to quote. Thin layers on large sheets will maximize the surface area for linseed oil to react with oxygen. In general, chemical reactions double with every 10 degrees C increase. Of course there is a point where further temperature increases may have a negative effects.   At some point theory must give way to what works if one is being practical. 

Unfortunately, work load will make my comments infrequent, but I will try to read interesting threads like this one  

Cheers,

Jim

 

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