Sign in to follow this  
Adri

Old french violin bow probably, what could be?

Recommended Posts

hello !

I recently bought this bow. It is old and the pernambuco seems really good. Some of my teachers told me it could probably a french bow (maybe a bazin??). Anyway, it is stamped as:ONOFRE POMAR BARCELONA. I know that this man stamped many french bows that he owned between the 1903-1930 and he was a dealer as far as I know, not a bow maker. 

Could anyone help me PLEASE?? Should I bring it to any expert as Raffin o Lecanu?

6509C4F8-8ED4-4B70-83CD-38E12BD9DF87.jpeg

D534FF1A-1922-428B-A74B-6BDA294434D4.jpeg

2ABC4D1F-94DF-4A94-8853-26BB8E66B4C1.jpeg

042D7E82-86E7-4543-A8D0-D282563B6943.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take it to your local violin shop, or several of your local violin shops. If they are encouraging, take detailed photos, Send them to Paul Childs and ask him if it warrants further investigation. Paul is a worldwide expert on French bows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't immediately cry out French to me. I would suggest you send photos to the Raffin shop in the first instance. JF Raffin, Yannick Le Canu and Sylvain Bigot work together btw ...

If you want a more basic opinion, could you show images of the metal parts, including the underslide. Are there pins in the adjuster and the bottom plate?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, martin swan said:

It doesn't immediately cry out French to me. I would suggest you send photos to the Raffin shop in the first instance. JF Raffin, Yannick Le Canu and Sylvain Bigot work together btw ...

If you want a more basic opinion, could you show images of the metal parts, including the underslide. Are there pins in the adjuster and the bottom plate?

 

Hello,

i sended some photos to raffin and he told me i should bring the bow to know what could be. He believes that maybe it is german, because is stamped with a spanish name and some bows with spanish or italian stamped are german. That’s true in most of the cases? 

Here you have some more photos!!

any help is really welcomed, thank you

64DB6172-077E-45C5-A888-DB2C4FC05E5D.jpeg

69CA8C79-236F-4C58-ADBE-285F7BC51480.jpeg

91E5B2E0-A8BD-40B7-A1BD-BD1FA704DC63.jpeg

05B91F3A-B92D-49E3-BA31-793C7F3D3358.jpeg

 

Edited by Adri
More photo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see for all the black gunk - how is the underslide attached to the frog?

To me the stick looks rather rapidly worked and I would assume it's Markneukirchen ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, martin swan said:

I can't see for all the black gunk - how is the underslide attached to the frog?

To me the stick looks rather rapidly worked and I would assume it's Markneukirchen ...

Maybe you can see it now better.. it’s hard to make a photo. I think the underslide is attached to the frog with two pins, at least the one behind the screw is easy to recognise

Thank you for your info!! 

6ACF37C6-C12F-4EE2-B630-570E08D9C1B8.jpeg

2B2C39D5-8DED-4680-AB27-4148E584FF28.jpeg

DFCCA313-CE0C-4C62-9E4C-E602427E913B.jpeg

B0DAEA51-15DC-4B0F-8494-C740472F1B94.jpeg

Edited by Adri
More Photo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Take it to your local violin shop, or several of your local violin shops. If they are encouraging, take detailed photos, Send them to Paul Childs and ask him if it warrants further investigation. Paul is a worldwide expert on French bows.

Thank you very much!! Do you have the email of Paul?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first sight I guessed it could be something like a Bazin, but by the new photos it looks more like Markneukirchen imitating the french style, including the irregular pearl eye. No pins in the button?

IMG_2647.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2019 at 2:48 PM, Blank face said:

At first sight I guessed it could be something like a Bazin, but by the new photos it looks more like Markneukirchen imitating the french style, including the irregular pearl eye. No pins in the button?

IMG_2647.JPG

Hello!

well, those of the photo have pins right? And there are pins in the buttons , am i right? the  Why do you think it’s german?

the bow you show in the photo, is markneukirchen?

 

 

 

8FDFDE45-E307-4638-8388-7656F77361F6.png

Edited by Adri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Blank face said:

At first sight I guessed it could be something like a Bazin, but by the new photos it looks more like Markneukirchen imitating the french style, including the irregular pearl eye. No pins in the button?

IMG_2647.JPG

Side question, did French trade bows ever use screws instead of pins, or are screws typically non-French?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, ClefLover said:

Side question, did French trade bows ever use screws instead of pins, or are screws typically non-French?

Hi!

sorry i’m not a veteran about old bows and i didn’t see a lot of them in due to give you my opinion, i can’t help you...maybe martin knows more about this matter

Edited by Adri
More Info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, martin swan said:

I can't see for all the black gunk - how is the underslide attached to the frog?

To me the stick looks rather rapidly worked and I would assume it's Markneukirchen ...

Hello Martin,

i have another question: what does it mean the pins you mentioned in the bottom and in the adjuster? How do they look actually? Even if it is a markneukirchen, you assume it’s a good work or not?

I’m inexperienced in old bows and that’s why I want to learn. Thank you!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2019 at 3:16 PM, ClefLover said:

Side question, did French trade bows ever use screws instead of pins, or are screws typically non-French?

Steel screws (not brass) are often used in what's called "Peccatte school", or by the Peccattes themselves. But it's relative rare in french making.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2019 at 2:52 PM, Adri said:

Hello!

well, those of the photo have pins right? And there are pins in the buttons , am i right? the  Why do you think it’s german?

the bow you show in the photo, is markneukirchen?

It's actually a bit difficult to sort it out, because your posts and photos are delayed as long as you don't have ten post. Now I'm seeing the pin in the adjuster button.

Pins in the heel plate or slide alone don't tell much about origin, they are at german bows, too; a pinned button could point to a french origin, but they are also in many 20th century german. As Raffin confirmed, your bow is difficult. What appears to be german are features like the untapered pearl slide and the rather straight front of the ferrule (if these aren't tricks of the photos only); the not very refined head could be a Markneukirchen trait, but also point to a fast made Mirecourt. Stylistically the frog looks much more neatly made than the head, so I'm a bit wondering if both were really going together from the start, but that's hard to tell by the photos.

The frog I posted for comparison is Markneukirchen trade copying the french appearance, they made many following this style from the early 20th century on, so it can be difficult to separate them often by photos. Maybe you can make photos dead straight from the sides of head and lapping area, it could give more clue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Blank face said:

It's actually a bit difficult to sort it out, because your posts and photos are delayed as long as you don't have ten post. Now I'm seeing the pin in the adjuster button.

Pins in the heel plate or slide alone don't tell much about origin, they are at german bows, too; a pinned button could point to a french origin, but they are also in many 20th century german. As Raffin confirmed, your bow is difficult. What appears to be german are features like the untapered pearl slide and the rather straight front of the ferrule (if these aren't tricks of the photos only); the not very refined head could be a Markneukirchen trait, but also point to a fast made Mirecourt. Stylistically the frog looks much more neatly made than the head, so I'm a bit wondering if both were really going together from the start, but that's hard to tell by the photos.

The frog I posted for comparison is Markneukirchen trade copying the french appearance, they made many following this style from the early 20th century on, so it can be difficult to separate them often by photos. Maybe you can make photos dead straight from the sides of head and lapping area, it could give more clue.

Thank you so much for the information!! 

Yeah, i know it’s being a little bit tricky to post something, i don’t have 10 posts yet.. sorry

here you have some more photos. Hope it will give you more ideas!

6FEEACD4-B508-4081-A3B7-71032ADCADC6.jpeg

38140C5E-CBE4-42E2-9151-F0B84E36C908.jpeg

EA6777CD-82BD-4354-A0CD-1C2B6E62278C.jpeg

02F19B81-B3CC-4747-A74E-7701AB570896.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Blank face said:

Steel screws (not brass) are often used in what's called "Peccatte school", or by the Peccattes themselves. But it's relative rare in french making.

I think the Peccatte school used iron screws ... they certainly corrode badly 

A couple of C20 French makers used steel screws occasionally, Fetique and EA Ouchard come to mind, but it’s very rare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I recently send some photos to Pierre Guillaume, I thought it would be interesting a second opinion (I never doubt of Raffin’s opinion, I take very seriouslly his advices!!) . He said it could be french but he said it need to be checked personally. I’m starting to be confused and I don’t know who should see the bow before... any advice?

Edited by Adri
Info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For whatever it may be worth, the frog looks brand new, and German, although the poor soldiering job (the ferrule on the player's side) puts me off that. The rounding of the throat of the frog into the sides especially. Looks like machine-dependent factory work, post WW II.

The adjuster, in contrast,  looks  old and ragged out -- thinner metal (deformed) such as I'd expect from hasty Mirecourt procedure.

I'd guess composite.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I think the Peccatte school used iron screws ... they certainly corrode badly 

Looking at some of my antique knifes and gouges, steel can corrode very badly, too. <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, A432 said:

For whatever it may be worth, the frog looks brand new, and German, although the poor soldiering job (the ferrule on the player's side) puts me off that. The rounding of the throat of the frog into the sides especially. Looks like machine-dependent factory work, post WW II.

The adjuster, in contrast,  looks  old and ragged out -- thinner metal (deformed) such as I'd expect from hasty Mirecourt procedure.

 I'd guess composite.

  

It’s interesting what you said! This is my opinion: the person who stamped this bow was a luthier and worked in Barcelona between 1903 and 1930 (this information i can confirm it for sure!). So I guess the frog is after WW II as you said. Maybe the stick is french but the frog was changed... does it make sense? 

After the info that I have, this bow could be french but from a workshop maybe. Anyway, I’ll bring it to Raffin or Guillaume for sure, this is bow is strange... anyway,  the price was cheap... 

Edited by Adri
Info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Adri said:

here you have some more photos. Hope it will give you more ideas!

If these are deep file marks at the chamfers and sides of the head it's most probably Mirecourt made. A432 made some good points for the frog being later. Sorry that I have no other idea whom to show it than the named experts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Raffin and Pierre Guillaume will say the same thing if they see the bow.

not so sure about the frog - surely the back plate has been messed around with as it stops short of the underslide and has a funny screw where there was previously a pin

but i also think it’s composite as the fit between frog and stick is very poor. The frog is or was better than the stick which has a very crude nose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys,

the bow has 65 grams by the way... this is normal? I think bazin or bazin workshop didn’t use to make bows so heavy... which bow maker used to do 65 grams bow? Knopf maybe? I’m just curious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.