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dyyoung

I hope to get help

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6 hours ago, dyyoung said:

Thank you very much for  professional reply!. Now I'm worrying about how to recover the money I paid for the violin. After that, I will give a good account of what happened.

 

 

you paid??????? lets hope that was with a visa card, so sorry to hear that, not sure what country you are in and if they have any consumer/legal protections for what is clearly fraud.But if so, you may start with a phone call to the police.

May we inquire as to a ball park of what you paid? 

Here again, not trying to rub anything in, just trying to protect future buyers and to have this be a teachable moment. If the price was suspiciously low, thathen that should have been a "tell" if the price paid is what this violin should go for, well then, that's out right criminal and you have been seriously ripped off.....and furthermore, if so, you would be doing THE ENTIRE VIOLIN WORLD a favor by exposing who this person is so other unsuspecting innocent buyers will not be ripped off from this criminal. 

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35 minutes ago, Herman West said:

yikes.

the guy in the black tee is the "violin businessman"?

What? it's got Sony guts, it's good radio...

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Then, I see post's like this and my "everything is a lie" spider senses gesticulate. A one post poster comes in with "this post"

and well I certainly hope our, particularly Martin's, knowledge base is not being taken advantage of and or being used in the potential commission of a future crime in that I hope this guy and his story are real and that this is not the "faker" running his fake crap by ":experts" in order to see what they catch so he can correct anything if possible...because if this is the faker, he certainly got a nice education.

So to the OP , it would certainly make me feel better if we got some name of who this unscrupulous person is, as because if we don't, and you just "fade away" with no name given, that doesn't really sit too well....and adds some merit to my "conspiracy"

We here at MN must be aware that there are people who would use what they can glean from us in order to tighten up their ship...

I certainly hope that's not the case here, and that the "dealer" is an actual real person who can actually really be avoided by simply giving a name so people will know to avoid it.

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For what it is worth I have been PM'd by OP, and notified that he has reached his post limit...I have requested a name from him and said I would post it for him, so let's see...

a person who is stealing money from people by selling fake Italian violins needs to be known so they can be avoided

and if the dealer cries ignorance, well, he needs to go back to "dealer school" and give the guy his money back

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The violinist playing in the OP's video is recognizable to me, and may be recognizable to other readers of violinist.com. I am not going to say anything more than that because I do not know the relationship between the OP and the violinist in the video.

Edited later: Not the person I thought he was.

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2 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

The individual playing in the OP's video is recognizable to me, and may be recognizable to other readers of violinist.com. I am not going to say anything more than that. 

well all I know is I wonder if op is the op or is op the dealer pretending to be the op

I say this because there are "things" that are strange, for example it is suggested that he "should" buy the violin, then we are told he already bought it...

anyways, my late night voluntary violin police activities are done for the evening :lol:, hope everything works out for everyone...

 

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

For what it is worth I have been PM'd by OP, and notified that he has reached his post limit...I have requested a name from him and said I would post it for him, so let's see...

a person who is stealing money from people by selling fake Italian violins needs to be known so they can be avoided

and if the dealer cries ignorance, well, he needs to go back to "dealer school" and give the guy his money back

Post limit?  Maybe his posts are still in the review line.

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20 minutes ago, reg said:

This really interesting and frightening.

Is the OP in the UK?

I doubt it, in that case he would have noticed the English on the certificate was not quite certified.

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2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

well all I know is I wonder if op is the op or is op the dealer pretending to be the op

Upon comparing some additional videos, the violinist in the OP's video is probably not the person I thought I recognized.

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2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Then, I see post's like this and my "everything is a lie" spider senses gesticulate. A one post poster comes in with "this post"

and well I certainly hope our, particularly Martin's, knowledge base is not being taken advantage of and or being used in the potential commission of a future crime in that I hope this guy and his story are real and that this is not the "faker" running his fake crap by ":experts" in order to see what they catch so he can correct anything if possible...because if this is the faker, he certainly got a nice education.

So to the OP , it would certainly make me feel better if we got some name of who this unscrupulous person is, as because if we don't, and you just "fade away" with no name given, that doesn't really sit too well....and adds some merit to my "conspiracy"

We here at MN must be aware that there are people who would use what they can glean from us in order to tighten up their ship...

I certainly hope that's not the case here, and that the "dealer" is an actual real person who can actually really be avoided by simply giving a name so people will know to avoid it.

What I thought. I'm sure it happens all the time. Which is why maybe no one should go over a litany of weirdness with the "certificate" in these cases, or go crazy with problems with the instrument, just insist it's fake. I was very grateful for the photo of the genuine dalla Costa, but could it help scammers to see hi-res photos? Sure.

Martin...as for Romania...no reason. Remote, lots of violin trade people there. All of my transactions with Romanians have been impeccable and honest. And it's still a place where one can buy a house for almost nothing. Sometimes I think about what $10,000 means in some of the countries involved in the violin trade, wonder how desperate people are in general for a piece of it. 

3 hours ago, jezzupe said:

What? it's got Sony guts, it's good radio...

I amused myself by reading the certificate aloud in my finest Borat Sagdiyev voice.

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I have had plenty of violins offered to me in Prague and Budapest with these kinds of silly fake certificates.


The idea that people engaging in this kind of fraud would bother to test-case their handiwork on Maestronet is absurd - this stuff is whipped up in an hour or so by people who have no big investment in what they are doing. And the last thing anyone trying to flog a fake is going to do is to seek exposure. 

Likewise the idea that we would be feeding them vital information by posting photos of authentic instruments which are widely available anyway .... 

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My question is what is the price? Is he selling it at a price that reflects the cert? Or is the price in line with a tarted up Markie? Sometimes people feel the need to make trade instrument more interesting just to move it off at trade instrument prices (or a just a bit higher). In which case, if you really like the playing qualities of the instrument, just buy it and chuck the paperwork.

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Widely available, maybe. But your pictures were a huge improvement from the thumbnails on Tarisio. Thank you for them! 

Maybe there was no attempt to actually copy anything, but if scammers thought it mattered they probably would. Why not?  They're going to do whatever works, including ratchet up their game a bit to capitalize on people's hopes and /or greed if they must. I feel like back in 2006 when I first started paying any attention to violins (so long ago), faking and scamming wasn't even as sophisticated as it is now. There was often nitrocellulose involved. Information probably helps "everyone". I'm not at all arguing any point, just thinking back to a simpler time, when cheap violins were cheap violins. Sigh. 

I was too impressed with the black and white photos. I have no idea if the fraudsters were close with the letterhead, address, or any of that stuff (guess is definitely not), but it looked like old photos, an old font, decent pictures. Better than Borat over there holding it by the neck and taking pictures with the flash on at slightly skewed angles. 

While I can't understand anyone making the purchase, I feel for anyone who did. That's lousy. But there are also many modern Luthiers in China and everywhere doing really brilliant work and charging fair prices. Find one, buy from them.

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The original poster referred to us as “seniors” which might have been a mistranslation of the original Mandarin, if it was in Mandarin. And Chinese, The word for “teacher” roughly translates as, “old one” So maybe he was referring to the experts here as “teachers”

 

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On 4/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, dyyoung said:

Hello, seniors.

 

15 hours ago, Thomas Coleman said:

You must be talking to David Burgess, he just had a birthday. :D

 

cat.jpg

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21 hours ago, not telling said:

Certificate written on April 22th

 

15 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

To your point about poor English, I think she was pointing out "April 22th" instead of the correct "April 22d."

 

9 hours ago, martin swan said:

ah missed that!

Well...since the pitchforks seem to be warranted, I can't help but join the mob with my, er, garden fork.

Sorry...but I'm laughing at the above...

I believe it SHOULD be April 22nd...:ph34r:

...I didn't want the 'n' to feel left out...

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28 minutes ago, Rue said:

 

 

Well...since the pitchforks seem to be warranted, I can't help but join the mob with my, er, garden fork.

 

[Wheels her horse, and seats her jumonji yari]  Nah, here's what you need for these cases.  Pick the right tool for the job, and all that.  :ph34r::lol:

image.png.b6dc532755b34dd9a50c89601032ea07.png

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LOL...you must have a much better sense of balance than I have.

If I can't use my garden fork - I'm actually quite comfortable with a short spear - er, and skip the horse (the horse is SO relieved to hear me say that)...:P

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A simple Google Image search for the source of this certificate provides a possible clue to the original template.  One simple thing to take into account here is that in the late 80's the type would more likely to have been produced with a good old fashioned typewriter and not with Word and then printed. 

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4 hours ago, martin swan said:

I have had plenty of violins offered to me in Prague and Budapest with these kinds of silly fake certificates.


The idea that people engaging in this kind of fraud would bother to test-case their handiwork on Maestronet is absurd - this stuff is whipped up in an hour or so by people who have no big investment in what they are doing. And the last thing anyone trying to flog a fake is going to do is to seek exposure. 

Likewise the idea that we would be feeding them vital information by posting photos of authentic instruments which are widely available anyway .... 

well, I don't know about "absurd" ...it's not really the photos, so much as "everything", and well if he is a scammer, he was told everything we saw wrong with it....

and for what it is worth, I got no reply back in my PM with a name, he has not come back to give us one...I find it odd that when I "called" him out on it, he suddenly hit's his post limit and then disappears, particularly odd that he would pm me to let me know that, {like he wanted to respond, but, shucks just couldn't, but then easily could have pm'd me back....or what? maybe the PM limit?

I really don't find my line of thinking too out there in this day and age, if your an Eastern Block kinda guy with limited English skills and limited resources looking to get into the violin fraud game, well, this would be the right place to come for information.

All I know is if I genuinely got ripped off by a person who was not a "gone with the wind street corner criminal" but was an actual person with a name and address and therefore  some means for authorities to deal with it, I certainly would be warning perspective buyers about this person.

The only "out"  this person has in all that is that the dealer himself may not know? and therefore he does not want to slander him, but that seems unlikely.

The entire thing stinks....

 

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1 hour ago, not telling said:

While I can't understand anyone making the purchase, I feel for anyone who did. That's lousy. But there are also many modern Luthiers in China and everywhere doing really brilliant work and charging fair prices. Find one, buy from them.

The Chinese are attracted to Western luxury goods. Status symbols.  Tianjin Seagull and DG make some excellent watches, but China has been a wonderful market for the Swiss. 

I feel that it's the "Vienna" that hooked him.  That might even be true.  Maybe Jacob S. needs to keep closer tabs on his rubbish bin.  :lol:

3 hours ago, reg said:

So Martin

What is the instrument - a late Markie? 

Not Chinese!

Not presuming to answer for Martin, but it looks and sounds to me as if that's not too far off.  IMHO, "The usual".  :rolleyes:

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We all find these violins with such open c-bout curves a bit odd.

Apart from cut-down violas and a couple of mid 18th century Genoese makers, the only other place we find this detail is in earlier "Bohemian" instruments. But looking at the violin in totality, yes I think it's some kind of quirky MK/Sch thing.

Btw. the sort of people who perpetrate these frauds are not into spending time or money. Making bench copies or genuine fakes is really far too much work - they rely entirely on the ignorance and optimism of buyers, and it's much easier to fake a certificate than a dalla Costa. For this reason I think this whole argument a out giving them too much information is spurious - the more genuine examples out there the better.

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