Guarneri 4 String Fiddle...

[Ernest Martel]

Since my last two fiddles have been 5 string's....I feel the need to build a 4.  I'm using the Vieuxtemps outline. One piece Bosnian maple back,neck and sides with an Englemann spruce top.

Back plate graduated and today glued to ribs...

 

[Ernest Martel]

Ignore the size of the blocks...my old camera distorts everything.The U&L blocks are not nearly that big. I need to trash this old point and shoot camera.  To get an idea of just how much distortion just look at the difference in the upper and lower closing clamps.

[Michael Jennings]

Admiration....... and a bit of envy...

[edi malinaric]

4 hours ago, lpr5184 said:

Ignore the size of the blocks...my old camera distorts everything.The U&L blocks are not nearly that big. I need to trash this old point and shoot camera.  To get an idea of just how much distortion just look at the difference in the upper and lower closing clamps.

Hi lpr5184 - the human eyeball has a focal length of ~ 20 - 25mm. 

Pictures taken with a lens of this focal length appear true-to-life. The further one strays either side of that the more distortion raises its ugly head.

I take my pics at 35mm (zoom lens) as much as I can.

cheers edi

[Ernest Martel]

Thanks Edi, but I don't quite understand.

[Don Noon]

Shorter focal length makes things closer to the camera look much bigger.  Longer focal length equalizes things.

If your point-and-shoot camera has a zoom function, try moving the camera farther away  and zooming in.

[Jim Bress]

12 hours ago, lpr5184 said:

Since my last two fiddles have been 5 string Sultana's....I feel the need to build a 4 string.  I'm using the Vieuxtemps outline. It will be ready to be played at the NOTFC in June.

One piece Bosnian maple back,neck and sides with an Englemann spruce top.

Back plate graduated and today glued to ribs...

 

Looks really nice.  Like what Del Gesu might have done if Nicolo was breathing down his neck.    Did you use a standard GDG form and extend the top block, or did you make a form specifically for this model?

-Jim

[Ernest Martel]

21 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Shorter focal length makes things closer to the camera look much bigger.  Longer focal length equalizes things.

If your point-and-shoot camera has a zoom function, try moving the camera farther away  and zooming in.

My camera does have a zoom. I'll try that...Thanks!

[Ernest Martel]

5 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

Looks really nice.  Like what Del Gesu might have done if Nicolo was breathing down his neck.    Did you use a standard GDG form and extend the top block, or did you make a form specifically for this model?

-Jim

............I'm working off the outline on the new Vieuxtemps poster from the Strad. Yes I made a new form from that.

[Jim Bress]

I'll be watching.  I have the poster.

[Ernest Martel]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:07 AM, Jim Bress said:

I'll be watching.  I have the poster.

I think it's a good poster with plenty of info. I've been waiting to use these few maple backs I bought 8 years ago. The Englemann comes from the Canadian Rockies. I've got a good feeling about this fiddle already and when finished I will try to get someone at the NOTFC to make a sound recording.

I already have a neck that I carved 7 years ago that I'll use so that will save some time. Just need to get going on the top. I'll try and post some better photos if I can figure out how to with this camera.

[Davide Sora]

14 hours ago, lpr5184 said:

Since my last two fiddles have been 5 string Sultana's....I feel the need to build a 4 string.  I'm using the Vieuxtemps outline. It will be ready to be played at the NOTFC in June.

One piece Bosnian maple back,neck and sides with an Englemann spruce top.

Back plate graduated and today glued to ribs...

 

 

Interesting convex shape of corner blocks, is there any particular reason why it is not concave as usual?

[Ernest Martel]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:22 AM, Davide Sora said:

Interesting convex shape of corner blocks, is there any particular reason why it is not concave as usual?

No real reason. Probably a good idea,... that would lighten the garland a couple more grams. The blocks are dense Sitka so I could use some lower density spruce for blocks too.  The linings are willow.

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, lpr5184 said:

No real reason. Probably a good idea,... that would lighten the garland a couple more grams.

I believe that making them concave would lighten them, making them convex take away less wood. Although I don't think it makes a big difference in weight, so I would give it a more stylistic value.  But I never tried to calculate the difference, did you do it out of curiosity?

[Ernest Martel]

Wow That looks great! I'm obviously not extending the cbout linings deep enough into the block.  So I worried that there would be not enough wood near that edge. So I left it thicker there. I can and will shave some more off the rear though. Thanks for the detail photo Davide,...very illuminating. I really like the way you trim the end of the lining that butts up to the corner block. You are THE man! 

Willow Blocks? I need to find some that nice. PM me your source please!!

[Don Noon]

I do the concave thing and use extremely low density spruce (~.29) for the corner blocks.  The corners move a lot in the CBR mode, and I want to keep that frequency high without resorting to more stiffness in the plates to do it.  I wouldn't use this low-density wood for the endblocks, where I think mass and strength are good things.

 

[Ernest Martel]

6 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I do the concave thing and use extremely low density spruce (~.29) for the corner blocks.  The corners move a lot in the CBR mode, and I want to keep that frequency high without resorting to more stiffness in the plates to do it.  I wouldn't use this low-density wood for the endblocks, where I think mass and strength are good things.

 

 Good info Don, Thanks! I don't have any thing that light but I will keep that in mind.

[Ernest Martel]

I shaved the corner blocks down...a total of 1g removed.  This would have been much easier without the back glued on....next time.

I also made the mistake of hitting the corner blocks with the hammer like the top and bottom blocks. I did'nt need to on the corner blocks they can be easily separated from the form with a palette knife. Two of them broke small sections off but I was able to glue them back on.  You can see one of  them in the 2nd photo.

So, don't hammer the corner blocks loose...

[Davide Sora]

10 hours ago, lpr5184 said:

I really like the way you trim the end of the lining that butts up to the corner block. You are THE man! 

Willow Blocks? I need to find some that nice. PM me your source please!!

Too kind, but I must warn you that this is not a feature of Stradivari's linings, he rounded them up against the block. Instead I think that a little extra gluing surface doesn't hurt in this area. I bought the willow a "few" years ago from Rivolta, in Mondomusica, he still sells it but surely not the same tree...... https://www.riwoods.com/list.aspx?s=1&ss=1&c=5

 I bought the 450x110x45 pieces, do not have an extremely low density like Don's spruce but it is still quite light (0.38/0.40 range) and it cuts more easily than spruce. Ideal for top and bottom blocks that need some strength, for corner blocks Don's solution may be a good idea to save weigth, but such a low density (0.29 is really low) gives me some concern about the excessive absorption during gluing and glue sizing, that would absorb a lot of glue.

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

...for corner blocks Don's solution may be a good idea to save weight, but such a low density (0.29 is really low) gives me some concern about the excessive absorption during gluing and glue sizing, that would absorb a lot of glue.

Yes, that low-density stuff is like a sponge on the endgrain, which is why it needs a couple of cycles of glue/dry sizing before gluing on the plates.  If you try to feed it glue on the first shot until it stops soaking in, you might fill the whole block up with glue... so you need to give it a little bit and let it dry, then repeat until it's sealed.  For gluing on the ribs, the block surfaces are radial or tangential cuts, which doesn't soak up glue even at that low density.

[Ernest Martel]

4 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Too kind, but I must warn you that this is not a feature of Stradivari's linings, he rounded them up against the block. Instead I think that a little extra gluing surface doesn't hurt in this area. I bought the willow a "few" years ago from Rivolta, in Mondomusica, he still sells it but surely not the same tree...... https://www.riwoods.com/list.aspx?s=1&ss=1&c=5

 I bought the 450x110x45 pieces, do not have an extremely low density like Don's spruce but it is still quite light (0.38/0.40 range) and it cuts more easily than spruce. Ideal for top and bottom blocks that need some strength, for corner blocks Don's solution may be a good idea to save weigth, but such a low density (0.29 is really low) gives me some concern about the excessive absorption during gluing and glue sizing, that would absorb a lot of glue.

Thanks Davide....I have an open order now with Rivolta and inquired with Federica about purchasing some willow. 

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Yes, that low-density stuff is like a sponge on the endgrain, which is why it needs a couple of cycles of glue/dry sizing before gluing on the plates.  If you try to feed it glue on the first shot until it stops soaking in, you might fill the whole block up with glue... so you need to give it a little bit and let it dry, then repeat until it's sealed.  For gluing on the ribs, the block surfaces are radial or tangential cuts, which doesn't soak up glue even at that low density.

 Yep, I meant just that, it wouldn't be a good idea to use low-density wood and then fill it with glue, but taking the right precautions you described works fine.  Also willow can be very low density and behave like a real sponge and the same precautions must be taken as well.

[Delabo]

18 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I believe that making them concave would lighten them, making them convex take away less wood. Although I don't think it makes a big difference in weight, so I would give it a more stylistic value.  But I never tried to calculate the difference, did you do it out of curiosity?

Your inside work is so beautiful it seems a shame to ruin the violin by putting the top on 

Is the slight gap around the linings inserted into the corner block for expansion ?

 

[Ernest Martel]

Davide, your interior wood has very nice color. Is this just UV tanning too?

[Davide Sora]

26 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Your inside work is so beautiful it seems a shame to ruin the violin by putting the top on 

Is the slight gap around the linings inserted into the corner block for expansion ?

Damn, you caught me, better to put on the top to hide the inaccuracy...

But yes, let's say for expansion, in fact it is important not to force the lining in the mortise, better to risk leaving a slight gap rather than forcing them in. If the gap is too wide (remote risk of buzz from glue fragments), you can always insert an additional willow strip.

I cut the width of the mortise by eye and when I guess correctly, the gaps closes with the swelling of the wood caused by the glue without becoming forced. That's the theory behind.