Sign in to follow this  
chanot

Joint between upper block and neck /dovetail?

Recommended Posts

I guess Strad  added screws to his body/ neck  joints plus hide glue..I didn't dovetail mine when making 30 years ago .. they are still solid ..am I just lucky? ..would the small dovetail in the upper block be that helpful in firming up that joint to resist pull of strings over the long haul.?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strad used a butt joint and nails.

The standard neck joint isn't really a conventional 'dovetail', although the walls aren't strictly perpendicular either.

With the button and a well fit joint I'd say it's not luck, even if the walls of the mortise were perpendicular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, chanot said:

I guess Strad  added screws to his body/ neck  joints plus hide glue..I didn't dovetail mine when making 30 years ago .. they are still solid ..am I just lucky? ..would the small dovetail in the upper block be that helpful in firming up that joint to resist pull of strings over the long haul.?

Yes, it should be a dovetail, although as Andres mentioned, not very drastic. The joint should have strength in the accuracy of the way it is set and not depend on the button.  Otherwise you risk ripping off the button of nice old violins when there is a minor incident.  A quick way of checking while setting is to set one edge of a ruler on the fingerboard at the nut area, set the other across the planed surface of the butt end, and look up at the light for gaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

The joint should have strength in the accuracy of the way it is set and not depend on the button.

Yes! And I think this is true for fitting the butt joint for when you're nailing the neck, baroque style, too. Hargrave swears that the butt joint fit on an Andrea Guarneri viola with original neck was pretty unimpressive, and that he believed most of the security came from the heel/button interface. I guess I'm more of a belt-and-braces kind of guy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Yes! And I think this is true for fitting the butt joint for when you're nailing the neck, baroque style, too. Hargrave swears that the butt joint fit on an Andrea Guarneri viola with original neck was pretty unimpressive, and that he believed most of the security came from the heel/button interface. I guess I'm more of a belt-and-braces kind of guy. 

Especially with restoration.  I do not care much if someone wants to do a sloppy neck set on one of their new fiddles, wood grows on trees. However, I believe a restorer has a responsibility to work to a level that does not cause damage and does not contribute to future damage because of lax standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Especially with restoration.  I do not care much if someone wants to do a sloppy neck set on one of their new fiddles, wood grows on trees. However, I believe a restorer has a responsibility to work to a level that does not cause damage and does not contribute to future damage because of lax standards.

Amen, though I would hope all new making would be done to the same standard. I strive, at any rate. Lots of respect for the restorers, man. You and Jerry Lynn are like powerful sorcerors as far as I am concerned. I'm just a box maker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The neck/top block joint has nothing to do with a "dovetail" joint, as I learned dovetail joints from my grandfather as a child. There was a period in the mid 19th C. between where through necks transisioned to the "modern method" where some makers e.g. Goram actually cut a real dovetail (see Zöbisch volume I page 421). Calling the normal modern neck set a "dovetail joint" is bollocks.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The neck/top block joint has nothing to do with a "dovetail" joint, as I learned dovetail joints from my grandfather as a child. There was a period in the mid 19th C. between where through necks transisioned to the "modern method" where some makers e.g. Goram actually cut a real dovetail (see Zöbisch volume I page 421). Calling the normal modern neck set a "dovetail joint" is bollocks.  

Sure, we will just change the f’n language because Jacob Saunders was taught something from his pappy......where the hell do you get this stuff?

BAB44FEE-3E04-4C52-99A9-D58AA6125E7B.jpeg

Perhaps your neck joints are not dovetails, but they should be...it could explain a thing or two as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is sometimes value in thinking about the boundaries of categories like 'dovetail'.  The violin world sometimes adopts terms in ways that lose sight of the original meaning.  It's not a problem a lot of the time but it sometimes endangers clear thinking.  For instance Jacob's example illustrates the problem even just within the violin world.  Does one really want to use a concept for the neck joint that blurs the conventional joint with instances in which a conventional dovetail was used?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, regiolal nomenclature. On this side of the fray bollocks just means testicles. Although in High School we did refer to those regions as "your joint" as in "don't strain your joint over it".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the UK the term "dovetail joint" brings to mind the joint I was taught in woodwork class to join two pieces of wood at a corner to make a drawer for use in a chest of drawers.

The neck joint on a violin is a much more complex form of dovetail  with its different complex angles and really should have its own name to differentiate it from a standard dovetail joint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Sure, we will just change the f’n language because Jacob Saunders was taught something from his pappy......where the hell do you get this stuff?

BAB44FEE-3E04-4C52-99A9-D58AA6125E7B.jpeg

Perhaps your neck joints are not dovetails, but they should be...it could explain a thing or two as well.

I would like to see you doing an "O Level" in woodwork

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would like to see you doing an "O Level" in woodwork

Is that where you would be hanging instead of English class, or did pappy learn you that as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Is that where you would be hanging instead of English class, or did pappy learn you that as well?

I’m not ashamed of having learnt woodwork.

 

A dovetail is a mechanical joint. One could fit violin necks like that should one wish. I have aleady referenced the Goram dovetailed neck on page 421 of the first volume of Zöbisch, which you will surely have in your bookcase, since it is standard violin literature. If you want to make a dovetail, you set a sliding bevel at about 1:5 or 1:6, mark it out, and the joint holds together even without glue. If you don’t know what a dovetail is, then you should refrain from making a fool of yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I’m not ashamed of having learnt woodwork.

 

 

 

A dovetail is a mechanical joint. One could fit violin necks like that should one wish. I have aleady referenced the Goram dovetailed neck on page 421 of the first volume of Zöbisch, which you will surely have in your bookcase, since it is standard violin literature. If you want to make a dovetail, you set a sliding bevel at about 1:5 or 1:6, mark it out, and the joint holds together even without glue. If you don’t know what a dovetail is, then you should refrain from making a fool of yourself.

 

I certainly do know what a dovetail is sport, as well as everyone else on the planet.... except for you, and evidently pappy.  It is you allowing your foolish posts to go forward before checking your facts, that is the problem.. You do not seriously want to double down on a neck joint not being a dovetail do you, and if so are you really saying your necks are not in a dovetail and thus not a mechanical joint.  Please, please, say yes....this can only get better.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have to side with Jacob on this one.... look at the difference between the common violin "mortise" and the "tapered dovetail" joint on "traditional" steel string guitars [a'la Martin/Gibson]... The later is indeed a physically "locked" joint that will hold string tension on its own [without glue]....although, of course we do eventually glue them after checking/testing the dry physical joint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Michael Jennings said:

Have to side with Jacob on this one.... look at the difference between the common violin "mortise" and the "tapered dovetail" joint on "traditional" steel string guitars [a'la Martin]

Yup, Martin neck joints are dovetails as well, but funny enough so are cabinet joints and violin neck joints....all you need do is read.  This isn’t a poll, it is a knowable fact. Words mean things!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Yup, Martin neck joints are dovetails as well....all you need do is read.

Although quite different in the tapered and locked sides of the joint. Same as classic cabinet joinery.... Perhaps a matter of Semantics, but most folks and histories I'm familiar with use "dovetail" to refer to the physically locked joint.

 I your "read" rejoinder is to your previous link?  "interlocked" seems the key.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Michael Jennings said:

Although quite different in the tapered and locked sides of the joint. Same as classic cabinet joinery.... Perhaps a matter of Semantics, but most folks and histories I'm familiar with use "dovetail" to refer to the physically locked joint.

 I your "read" rejoinder is to your previous link?  "interlocked" seems the key.

Yes, a neck is a dovetail. It is different than a cabinet, and a guitar, and some metal crafted wood planes....these are.all dovetails.  Just like guitars have necks, giraffes have necks, and violins have necks.  It doesn’t mean because a violin neck doesn’t look like a giraffe’s neck, or because pappy didn’t know any better, we should rename it!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Yes, a neck is a dovetail. It is different than a cabinet, and a guitar, and some metal crafted wood planes....these are.all dovetails.  Just like guitars have necks, giraffes have necks, and violins have necks.  It doesn’t mean because a violin neck doesn’t look like a giraffe’s neck, or because pappy didn’t know any better, we should rename it!!

Do you do Giraffe necks too? (poor things) A modern neck Joint is a glue joint and not a mecanical Joint, and certainly not a dovetail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Do you do Giraffe necks too? (poor things) A modern neck Joint is a glue joint and not a mecanical Joint, and certainly not a dovetail

Ha....no wonder your necks come out.....this is priceless!  You really do not do you?  I will bet you count on the button holding them in...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Andres Sender said:

Does one really want to use a concept for the neck joint that blurs the conventional joint with instances in which a conventional dovetail was used?

I may not want to put them in the same category, but after giving this some more thought, I do think that's the right choice.

The slightness of the taper of the neck doesn't stop it from causing the joint to share more of its distinguishing characteristics with dovetails compared to the alternatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The acute angle between the block and ribs helps a violin joint gain strength. In this way, it is the same as a dovetail, except that the sides taper down to the button. 

I would call it a tapered dovetail, if the name matters that much

best

Anthony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Ha....no wonder your necks come out.....this is priceless!  You really do not do you?  I will bet you count on the button holding them in...

You are full of shit (once again)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.