Bow stamped "Peccatte". What do you think?

[millant]

Hi everyone,

In my hands now an old bow stamped "Peccatte" featuring some characteristics of this makers family but nothing sure about who made it. Just the stamp and a good appearance that seems to be correct. What do you think? 

Thanks in advance for watching.

[PhilipKT]

The forward screw in the frog appears to be iron. Peccatte used iron in his metal work didn’t he? And it caused problems with the wood?

the rear screw appears to have been replaced with steel? Silver?

[PhilipKT]

The pearl eye looks replaced as well, I think.

[fiddlecollector]

Looks like a possible Francois Peccatte or his workshop. Stick is amourette.They used steel screws . Not sure about the button(whether its original or not)

 

[millant]

19 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

The pearl eye looks replaced as well, I think.

Hi PhilipKT, I don't know but it's in better condition than the pearl slide plate (?). 

Edited April 15, 2019 by millant
Bad spelling

[millant]

19 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Looks like a possible Francois Peccatte or his workshop. Stick is amourette.They used steel screws . Not sure about the button(whether its original or not)

 

Hi fiddlecollector, I'm quite sure the stick is made of fine Pernambuco. Wood gets gradually darker towards the head. I'll post better pictures of wood later. 

[millant]

Some more pictures trying to better show the kind of wood on this bow. I always have believed this is fine Pernambuco. 

[fiddlecollector]

You may be right hard to tell but this area definitely looks like amourette.

 

[chrissweden]

What I am missing is the typical Peccatte nick behind the head, something a lot of makers who have no understanding of the Peccatte principle omit when making a bow. André Chardon was a maker who did understand this although in his work the nick is more profound

The chamfers should follow the curve of the inside head longer instead now they go towards the stick too soon which cause and asymmetrical appearance.

Please check if there is a ridge on the front of the head, Dominique always did this where as his brother did not. When viewing from the front there should also be an S line visible.

[MeyerFittings]

I thought so too in the first set of photos, but the mid stick and the hint of flaming looks different.

 

[GeorgeH]

3 minutes ago, chrissweden said:

the typical Peccatte nick behind the head

ridge on the front of the head

When viewing from the front there should also be an S line visible

Any pictures of any or all of these features you could share or link to?

[chrissweden]

Books

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Any pictures of any or all of these features you could share or link to?

Books

[NickIsWorking]

2 hours ago, chrissweden said:

What I am missing is the typical Peccatte nick behind the head, something a lot of makers who have no understanding of the Peccatte principle omit when making a bow. André Chardon was a maker who did understand this although in his work the nick is more profound

Referring to this "nick", do you mean the slight circular dip or scoop in the underside of the stick just beyond the head.

Quote

The chamfers should follow the curve of the inside head longer instead now they go towards the stick too soon which cause and asymmetrical appearance.

Please check if there is a ridge on the front of the head, Dominique always did this where as his brother did not. When viewing from the front there should also be an S line visible.

 

[PhilipKT]

I just looked up amourette wood and it seems that that is just another name for snakewood.

Why in the world would anybody make such a nice bow out of Snakewood?

[PASEWICZ]

As was mentioned, I do not like the way the head transitions to the stick.

Also the frog does not go with the stick, the screw has been replaced with what looks to be an old rolled thread but is the wrong size (something fishy), and I do not think the button is from that stick.

 

 

 

[PASEWICZ]

7 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Any pictures of any or all of these features you could share or link to?

This is the transition:

[Wee B. Bridges]

 

For comparison, another example of Dominique Peccatte,  visiting my studio.

 

 

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

This is the transition:

 

53 minutes ago, Wee B. Bridges said:

For comparison, another example of Dominique Peccatte,  visiting my studio.

Thanks you both for the pictures! Very helpful!

[fiddlecollector]

8 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

As was mentioned, I do not like the way the head transitions to the stick.

Also the frog does not go with the stick, the screw has been replaced with what looks to be an old rolled thread but is the wrong size (something fishy), and I do not think the button is from that stick.

 

 

 

Who suggested it was a Dominique, which is what everyone seems to infer it NOT to be?  what do you mean by screw wrong size?  Even on Dominiques work the so called `nick ` is often barely percievable . Francois work on the other hand is all over the place, especially stuff that has  supposedly came from his shop.

Regarding the frog not belonging to the stick,it may or may not but very difficult to tell from those photos ,that it may be just a slack fitting.

[PASEWICZ]

27 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Who suggested it was a Dominique, which is what everyone seems to infer it NOT to be?  what do you mean by screw wrong size?  Even on Dominiques work the so called `nick ` is often barely percievable . Francois work on the other hand is all over the place, especially stuff that has  supposedly came from his shop.

Regarding the frog not belonging to the stick,it may or may not but very difficult to tell from those photos ,that it may be just a slack fitting.

I have a problem with the transition from the head to the stick, the angle of the tip, and the radius of the tip.

The screw is the wrong size because it does not match the mortise of the stick.

The button is the wrong size for the stick and the nipple.

The frog is different than the frog that was on the stick, as that frog had pins not screws.  This is not difficult to see from the photos.

 

[fiddlecollector]

Transition for Dominique or Francois??

How can you tell this (re:mortice)?D

Button of this period often slightly larger than stick diameter particularly in workshop stuff.

Frog had pins ,possible or not , could be a pinned F peccatte shop that someones tried to upgrade !

Heres a comparison of F peccatte heads ,`workshop` first followed by `made by`.

 

[PASEWICZ]

1 hour ago, fiddlecollector said:

Transition for Dominique or Francois??

Either.

How can you tell this (re:mortice)?D

?

Button of this period often slightly larger than stick diameter particularly in workshop stuff.

Certainly can be.

Frog had pins ,possible or not , could be a pinned F peccatte shop that someones tried to upgrade !

Certainly could have, or it could be funny rusting.

Heres a comparison of F peccatte heads ,`workshop` first followed by `made by`.

 

Look at all these heads and the angle the hair would leave the back of the head as compared to the stick, and the radius of the tip plate.  Now compare those to the bow in question below.  Could the head have been filed before the new tip was put on?  Could be, although that would have made the nose smaller and our question bow does not look to have a small nose for a Peccatte.

The other things you mention certainly could have happened.  But we have to look a little askew with so many idiosyncrasies on one bow, or at least I do.

I am not trying to sell you anything, these are just observations from someone that wears an apron all day.

[martin swan]

11 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I just looked up amourette wood and it seems that that is just another name for snakewood.

Why in the world would anybody make such a nice bow out of Snakewood?

You need to get out more - all the great 19th century makers used this wood.

Francois Peccatte in particular seems to have favoured amourette or other "bois exotique" over pernambuco.

[PASEWICZ]

1 minute ago, martin swan said:

You need to get out more - all the great 19th century makers used this wood.

Francois Peccatte in particular seems to have favoured amourette or other "bois exotique" over pernambuco.

Martin, do you have any observations as a player in the differences between pernambuco and amourette?

[martin swan]

Personally - not really. I think with the Peccatte school makers the differences in the approach to camber are dominant, and that wood density (whether pernambuco or amourette or abeille) is far more important than the species.

But we did sell an amourette F. Peccatte to a very fine violinist a couple of months ago - he has now given us his pernambuco FX Tourte to sell because he so much prefers the amourette bow. He's not a unique case either ...

Generally I've found it easier to sell non-pernambuco bows to viola players. But that may be because viola players have a wider take on what constitutes good sound than violinists.