Cochineal in violin varnish

[Omobono]

I recently saw a documentary on the origins of the pigment cochineal.

Just for my enlightenment might I ask.......

When did cochineal first find it's way into Italian (or European) instrument varnish?

Was it already used in Northern Italy in the 17th century? 

Omo. 

 

 

[Michael Szyper]

Cochineal was identified as one of the red pigments among iron and madder root in Stradivari varnishes.

[joerobson]

2 hours ago, Omobono said:

I recently saw a documentary on the origins of the pigment cochineal.

Just for my enlightenment might I ask.......

When did cochineal first find it's way into Italian (or European) instrument varnish?

Was it already used in Northern Italy in the 17th century? 

Omo. 

 

 

See my article "Scarlet Fever " in the September issue of the Strad Magazine.

Joe

[Michael_Molnar]

Cochineal can yield a very beautiful red-side magenta. The issue can be it's long-term stability. Brandmair detected it on a c.1720 Strad. B&G pp. 85, 128.

[scordatura]

From the recent instruments that I have seen with cochineal (Joe's varnish?) yield a very intense red color.

[Michael_Molnar]

The pH will change the color anywhere from violet to red. 

Also, to whatever the cochineal attaches will determine the color.

 

[MikeC]

In what way does PH affect the color?   Acid vs. base?     I have some that turned a dark grape juice purple.  

[Michael_Molnar]

32 minutes ago, MikeC said:

In what way does PH affect the color?   Acid vs. base?     I have some that turned a dark grape juice purple.  

Low pH is red; high is violet.

[Anthony Panke]

But most of the colour comes from oxidation anyway. 

[not telling]

Cochineal! 

[David Beard]

Cochineal I believe started to come in from the Americas quite immediately.  Also, pretty sure the perfumery inventory existing from Cremona around 1740 (I think) mentions both Kermes and Cochineal.

[joerobson]

Cochineal began its journey to Europe when Cortez returned from his first voyage to Mexico.   I cover the history in the Strad Magazine article...September issue...."Scarlet Fever ".

on we go,

Joe

[David Beard]

[not telling]

6 hours ago, David Beard said:

Cool!

[David Beard]

Ok.

So very likely were we use Cochineal, we should use Kermes.  However, cochineal original use in Europe was a a substitute for Kermes.

I'm sure off the limits of their interchangeablity?   Aren't  they pretty closely related?

[not telling]

I wish I could post pages out of the book. Let me read to you: (sorry, it won't be perfect)

 

 

the word grain derives from the Latin term granum since the insects when dried for selling look like small grains of wheat kermes instead derives from the Sanskrit word k r m i that is worm which indicates the insect from which the die was obtained and in Persia this term was transformed into kirmizi from which came the European kermes c h e r m e s c h e r m i s i , c a r m e s grain and kermes were produced from four different species of insects divisible in turn into two groups with sharply distinguished characteristics the first group was composed of the kermes Alexis and the kermes vermilio parasites of the quercus ilex and crutches Kochi Farah respectively, two varieties of oak tree found throughout the Mediterranean basin. This species composing the second group came from more distant regions and live not on trees but on lower groin vegetation colon the poliforum Mora family who is habitat was a wild grass the aloria pissed in the Torah umesorah Dr ilyas littoralis was found in the Caucasian regions of Armenia Georgia and Azerbaijan, we're in the nearby territories of Anatolia and Persia semicolon the polyfill for Apollo Monica also called Mara Gomez has lived in the roots of a small plant the square ramfis perennis that was cultivated in many areas of Central and Eastern Europe, including Prussia, Saxony, Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine. Even the coloring agents of the two groups were different colon care messick acid characterized the insect belonging to the Mediterranean breeds, and carminic acid with a different molecular structure, the poly fiber rope for a.

despite the Latin scientific nomenclature of these insects, we can assume that grain was obtained from the parasites of the Mediterranean oaks especially from kermes vermilio, since kermes a licious produced a pigment that tended to much towards beige, and kermes from the more remote polyfiber ofori. Indeed, the best known regions for the production of grain were northern Africa, Spain, the Balearic islands, southern France, and Greece, particularly the areas of Seville Valencia Majorca province creat Corinth and patras

in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries grain is without rival in the statutes of the Italian textile crafts and has an important place in Pega lottie's practica della mercatura. Kermes I, on the other hand, is almost never mentioned in the archival records before the late 14th century, when it is already linked to the region of cultivation of the two p o r p h y r o p h o r a e.

 

Sorry, I can't edit this, too much effort. I need to just figure out how to post the damn pages. However, I will dictate another interesting bit here in a moment. They aren't the same.

[not telling]

Cochineal!

 

[not telling]

There's a whole huge section on the history of the cochineal but I doubt anyone wants to suffer the deciphering of my dictation. I'll post pages when I can. 

[David Beard]

Art materia is a tricky subject.  Substitutions without name change were not probably as wide spread as now, but still then as now a material name meant both a material from a specific source, and a material satisfying a particular nature.  And these things interchanged in sometimes odd ways.

Consider just a view examples: Terbinthe Balsam -- Venice Turpentine -- Larch Balsaam -- Turpentine, Venetian Red -- Red ochre,  Sienna earth, Umber earth, etc.

At various times in history we art material terms become somewhat fluid as the begin to encompass substitutes with similar usage but different sourcing or even chenistry.

During the introduction of cochineal, I wouldn't easily assume that terms previously used to sell kermes didn't sometimes get used to sell cochineal.

But then the question remains, is cochineal a good substitute for our usage, or are we better served by finding actual Kermes?

 

[not telling]

 

The history of the cochineal is really interesting!

Edited April 12, 2019 by not telling
Too much information

[Michael_Molnar]

This is what Wikipedia says:

Cochineal dye was used by the Aztec and Maya peoples of North and Central America. Eleven cities conquered by Montezuma in the 15th century paid a yearly tribute of 2000 decorated cotton blankets and 40 bags of cochineal dye each.^[4] Production of cochineal is depicted in Codex Osuna. During the colonial period, the production of cochineal (grana fina) grew rapidly^[5]. Produced almost exclusively in Oaxaca by indigenous producers, cochineal became Mexico's second-most valued export after silver.^[6]Soon after the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire, it began to be exported to Spain, and by the 17th century was a commodity traded as far away as India.^[7] The dyestuff was consumed throughout Europe and was so highly prized, its price was regularly quoted on the London and Amsterdam Commodity Exchanges (with the latter one beginning to record it in 1589)^[5]. In 1777, French botanist Nicolas-Joseph Thiéry de Menonville, presenting himself as a botanizing physician, smuggled the insects and pads of the Opuntia cactus to Saint Domingue. This particular collection failed to thrive and ultimately died out, leaving the Mexican monopoly intact.^[8

[not telling]

Maybe...

 

[David Beard]

That's telling.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

2 hours ago, not telling said:

I wish I could post pages out of the book. Let me read to you: (sorry, it won't be perfect)

 

 

the word grain derives from the Latin term granum since the insects when dried for selling look like small grains of wheat kermes instead derives from the Sanskrit word k r m i that is worm which indicates the insect from which the die was obtained and in Persia this term was transformed into kirmizi from which came the European kermes c h e r m e s c h e r m i s i , c a r m e s grain and kermes were produced from four different species of insects divisible in turn into two groups with sharply distinguished characteristics the first group was composed of the kermes Alexis and the kermes vermilio parasites of the quercus ilex and crutches Kochi Farah respectively, two varieties of oak tree found throughout the Mediterranean basin. This species composing the second group came from more distant regions and live not on trees but on lower groin vegetation colon the poliforum Mora family who is habitat was a wild grass the aloria pissed in the Torah umesorah Dr ilyas littoralis was found in the Caucasian regions of Armenia Georgia and Azerbaijan, we're in the nearby territories of Anatolia and Persia semicolon the polyfill for Apollo Monica also called Mara Gomez has lived in the roots of a small plant the square ramfis perennis that was cultivated in many areas of Central and Eastern Europe, including Prussia, Saxony, Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine. Even the coloring agents of the two groups were different colon care messick acid characterized the insect belonging to the Mediterranean breeds, and carminic acid with a different molecular structure, the poly fiber rope for a.

despite the Latin scientific nomenclature of these insects, we can assume that grain was obtained from the parasites of the Mediterranean oaks especially from kermes vermilio, since kermes a licious produced a pigment that tended to much towards beige, and kermes from the more remote polyfiber ofori. Indeed, the best known regions for the production of grain were northern Africa, Spain, the Balearic islands, southern France, and Greece, particularly the areas of Seville Valencia Majorca province creat Corinth and patras

in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries grain is without rival in the statutes of the Italian textile crafts and has an important place in Pega lottie's practica della mercatura. Kermes I, on the other hand, is almost never mentioned in the archival records before the late 14th century, when it is already linked to the region of cultivation of the two p o r p h y r o p h o r a e.

 

Sorry, I can't edit this, too much effort. I need to just figure out how to post the damn pages. However, I will dictate another interesting bit here in a moment. They aren't the same.

Sorry if you already mentioned it, NT, but to what book are you referring.  And David, what book are you showing in your post?

Sincerely,

 

Your friendly neighborhood Cochinerd

[not telling]

Heh, yeah, David, that's telling..  but standards change and maybe cochineal later became the pigment to use in an art object for a king.