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bbitt

Friend with a Sartory(?)

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My friend sent me photos of this bow yesterday. Any strong indications for or against it be authentic? What should I look for in person and how can I help him sell it?

Thank you!

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6 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Why do people assume its German because it has a brand that isn`t the maker?

I can't say much about the stick with those pictures, but the frog and button, especially the button, are German, and the frog looks to fit the stick very well.

Also, if you take into account sheer numbers, you could be correct more often than not by just saying, "Oh, it's probably German". Perhaps the frog and button do not belong on the stick. From the one clear side of the frog that we can see, it seems to fit pretty well.

 

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Well, i hope im bidding against you on some bow:). I cant really decide what it is, the photos are at all the wrong angles,etc...I can see a pin in the side of the button,,,,,, Dont know!!!

OP any other photos from normal views like side ,  of frog and head, pearl slide and better still the frog and button off the stick showing underslide.?

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With online auctions I usually pass on things that don't have clear pictures that I can fairly evaluate. I have found that strange angles and artsy photos are generally geared toward obscuring things.

I've been doing this for over 20 years now. I've found some good things, bought many mistakes. It is far more likely that you will find a good stick with a bastard frog and button than the converse.

Also, with Sartory, you would be much, much more likely to see Parisian eyes with a cap for the button. You will find exceptions, but I suspect that they will be few.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=647

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I can't see anything what would rule out a Mirecourt origin of the bow, to say the least. The brand looks "brand" new;).

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21 hours ago, bbitt said:

Thanks for your input Duane. Would you expect such a bow to hold much value?

Bbitt, I hope you realize that duane88 is being facetious when he says it's from the German Sartory workshop. There was no such place.

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You could ask your friend to make some clearly focussed side views of the head and frog, the frog underside with the pearlslide and look for a pin in the adjuster. If it's Mirecourt made from pernambuco and silver mounted it could have a certain value (though not even close to Sartory).

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1 hour ago, MarkBouquet clearsky said:

Bbitt, I hope you realize that duane88 is being facetious when he says it's from the German Sartory workshop. There was no such place.

I say something funny. My partner doesn't laugh. I ask her why, to which she replies, "Because you aren't funny"...That probably says it all.

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On 4/13/2019 at 11:17 AM, fiddlecollector said:

Well, i hope im bidding against you on some bow:). I cant really decide what it is, the photos are at all the wrong angles,etc...I can see a pin in the side of the button,,,,,, Dont know!!!

OP any other photos from normal views like side ,  of frog and head, pearl slide and better still the frog and button off the stick showing underslide.?

What does the pin in side of the button indicate other than how it is constructed?

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The rings or cap are put onto the, usually,  ebony core. Many French makers put the pin in when the button is still a cylinder. Then you file the facets. The pin can end up anywhere. Most German makers put the pins in after filling the  facets, placing it more or less in the center of the facet. 

Some makers simply glue the rings or cap an and use no pins. 

On an unaltered example the placement of pins or the absence of them can help with authentication or guide you.

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6 hours ago, ClefLover said:

What does the pin in side of the button indicate other than how it is constructed?

Duane answered well enough.  Lets just say an awful lot of german buttons dont have pins and very few French bows don`t have pins(even the cheapest ones).

You can see the rings often out of line with the octagonal facets of the ebony centre on bows with no pins.

That said there are buttons from both schools where the ebony core is filed octagonal to fit an octagonal ring (the ring is octagonal inside as opposed to round) ,in that case pins arent needed and if so are just really for show.

Photo attached of 3 typical mass produced German overlaid buttons, you can see the 1st and 3rd have a slight octagon filed on the core whereas the middle one has just been left round.  The 1st and third would be ok for a while but after a while the wood core has shrank. All three could just be pulled off with moderate hand pressure. A simple pin would at least stop twisting and coming off the button core.

 

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4 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Duane answered well enough.  Lets just say an awful lot of german buttons dont have pins and very few French bows don`t have pins(even the cheapest ones).

You can see the rings often out of line with the octagonal facets of the ebony centre on bows with no pins.

That said there are buttons from both schools where the ebony core is filed octagonal to fit an octagonal ring (the ring is octagonal inside as opposed to round) ,in that case pins arent needed and if so are just really for show.

Photo attached of 3 typical mass produced German overlaid buttons, you can see the 1st and 3rd have a slight octagon filed on the core whereas the middle one has just been left round.  The 1st and third would be ok for a while but after a while the wood core has shrank. All three could just be pulled off with moderate hand pressure. A simple pin would at least stop twisting and coming off the button core.

 

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Thanks! The use of the pin has always made sense to me for functionality, but never really thought about it as an identifier.  I have just thought “old” vs “new.”  Very useful.

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A modern maker could use anything ,CA glue or that modified resin stuff popular amongst bowmakers for tips. Ponal?? Though i would say CA is better for metal /wood contact.

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