Sign in to follow this  
baroquecello

new york neck reset, what is it?

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

I know what you're Talking about, just wonder why you cant speak English

So why do you feign ignorance?  How about defending your position instead of seeking attention?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m actually wondering if “poirette” and “pirouette” are intended to be the same word, or are different words with different meanings, or if one is misspelled. I have to go back and re-read the commentary to make sure exactly what’s going on, it’s very difficult for me to visualize things, I find it I very much need something concrete to look at in order to understand. But I’m very good with words. Maybe not French words…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I’m actually wondering if “poirette” and “pirouette” are intended to be the same word, or are different words with different meanings, or if one is misspelled. I have to go back and re-read the commentary to make sure exactly what’s going on, it’s very difficult for me to visualize things, I find it I very much need something concrete to look at in order to understand. But I’m very good with words. Maybe not French words…

Poiriette is the word Rene’ and others use to refer to the neck slant on instruments.  Much like appui is used to refer to overstand or diapason is stop length.  I do not know the derivation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On April 10, 31 Heisei at 7:20 PM, nathan slobodkin said:

I think Rene Morel kind of took credit for making this an accepted practice although I am sure it was used in other places.

Indeed. Rene invented quite many things for restoring instruments but there were also a few where he wasn't really the first. 

I know an old Hungarian master who was doing this sort of neck resetting and maybe already before Rene started doing it. 

In the end it doesn't matter who invented it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

There is absolutely nothing about setting a neck that is random.  What are you talking about?  Are we continuing a conversation you did not get a chance to finish with Rene'?

 

BTW, I have never had the case where the poiriette was set to enable facility to the player did not also leave string clearance optimized.

Jerry,

My point was that if you measure poiriette at the lower bout it may be twisted in either direction in relation to the bridge area and even more so in relation to the neck root. I am not a cellist but having made many and set up even more. I believe that what matters is the relationship between the players shoulders and elbows to the fingerboard and the top of the bridge and the relationship between the top of the bridge and the edge of the instrument. The lower bout has little to do with anything. On a violin the possible twist to the top is usually small but on a cello can be very significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jacob,

As Jerry said Rene Morel used these words in his shop. I have no idea how they were spelled and it wouldn't surprise me if they were from some dialect peculiar to Mirecourt. Those of us who worked there are used to these designations as well as reversement for neck angle and L'enmanchement for neck length. There were other French speakers in the shop who didn't object to these words so I guess they made some sort of sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I suppose you could just sit there, with your tounge hanging out, would probaby work too.

No, silly! That's more likely to end up with someone sitting on your lap, than getting you a beer. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Jerry,

My point was that if you measure poiriette at the lower bout it may be twisted in either direction in relation to the bridge area and even more so in relation to the neck root. I am not a cellist but having made many and set up even more. I believe that what matters is the relationship between the players shoulders and elbows to the fingerboard and the top of the bridge and the relationship between the top of the bridge and the edge of the instrument. The lower bout has little to do with anything. On a violin the possible twist to the top is usually small but on a cello can be very significant.

I understand your view Nate, what you are missing is the lower bout is not just sitting there, it is where the player holds the instrument.  Of course the relationship of a player’s shoulders and elbows to the fingerboard is important and that is entirely the point because the relationship between their legs and the rest of the body is a constant....All you need do is observe how a player reacts to an instrument that is twisted and a fingerboard that is set to the bridge area instead of the bouts.....Of course the relationship a player has to the fingerboard is the point, but how that fingerboard is situated is because of it’s relationship to the lower bouts where the instrument is held.  Also, the relationship between the top of the bridge and the edge of the instrument is absolutely irrelevant at the c bouts past clearance.....every cellist on the planet can play with their eyes closed and would never know the edge is there if they are not hitting it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

No, silly! That's more likely to end up with someone sitting on your lap, than getting you a beer. :lol:

The person sitting on your lap will be ordering the drinks so no worry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

The person sitting on your lap will be ordering the drinks so no worry.

What if that person is the only bartender in the establishment?  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad you understand my point Jerry. I will be asking cellists about this or waiting for some to chime in here. I have a feeling they will not know WHY my cellos are so comfortable just that they are. I also will be  looking at performances to see if players tend to keep their knees in a constant relationship to the cello or if the orientation is more of a whole body thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the position of my knees is changing constantly while I'm playing to assist in string change. 

 It even depends on what I play, if I play basso continuo its more a right angle, and if there is a lot of a string and high positions to be played as solo then the cello is tiled somewhat to the right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jerry Pasewicz and @nathan slobodkin, I think this is highly interesting! I am a professional Player and as you can see from my comments, it is a Nathan sais, that I'm not Always sure what makes a certain Instrument easy to Play and others not.

That said, my gut instinct here is with Nathan. I Change the Position of my knees relative to the Cello regularly, Change the length of my end pin regularly, sometimes even during one rehearsal. I also Play baroque Cello without an end pin and have several ways to hold a Cello there. Holding it the same way all the time is in fact not healthy for the back, which Needs a Little Change every now and then. I therefore cannot imagine the relation between the neck and the lower bout to be very important at all. What does have a very direct Impact on the ease of playing is how "far away" the a string is, bow wise, and how easy it is to get over the top shoulder of the instrument. On a low overstand, the top shoulder Needs a lot more working around it. I would guess that a higher overstand for the a string comparatively would help get the Hand Palm away from the shoulder of the Cello, making the required arm movement to get into the higher positions smaller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

@Jerry Pasewicz and @nathan slobodkin, I think this is highly interesting! I am a professional Player and as you can see from my comments, it is a Nathan sais, that I'm not Always sure what makes a certain Instrument easy to Play and others not.

That said, my gut instinct here is with Nathan. I Change the Position of my knees relative to the Cello regularly, Change the length of my end pin regularly, sometimes even during one rehearsal. I also Play baroque Cello without an end pin and have several ways to hold a Cello there. Holding it the same way all the time is in fact not healthy for the back, which Needs a Little Change every now and then. I therefore cannot imagine the relation between the neck and the lower bout to be very important at all. What does have a very direct Impact on the ease of playing is how "far away" the a string is, bow wise, and how easy it is to get over the top shoulder of the instrument. On a low overstand, the top shoulder Needs a lot more working around it. I would guess that a higher overstand for the a string comparatively would help get the Hand Palm away from the shoulder of the Cello, making the required arm movement to get into the higher positions smaller.

 That's exactly what I wanted to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/13/2019 at 10:33 AM, baroquecello said:

@Jerry Pasewicz and @nathan slobodkin, I think this is highly interesting! I am a professional Player and as you can see from my comments, it is a Nathan sais, that I'm not Always sure what makes a certain Instrument easy to Play and others not.

That said, my gut instinct here is with Nathan. I Change the Position of my knees relative to the Cello regularly, Change the length of my end pin regularly, sometimes even during one rehearsal. I also Play baroque Cello without an end pin and have several ways to hold a Cello there. Holding it the same way all the time is in fact not healthy for the back, which Needs a Little Change every now and then. I therefore cannot imagine the relation between the neck and the lower bout to be very important at all. What does have a very direct Impact on the ease of playing is how "far away" the a string is, bow wise, and how easy it is to get over the top shoulder of the instrument. On a low overstand, the top shoulder Needs a lot more working around it. I would guess that a higher overstand for the a string comparatively would help get the Hand Palm away from the shoulder of the Cello, making the required arm movement to get into the higher positions smaller.

Yes, what you said is all a given, and of course the position of your knees changes, but they are still contacting the cello, that is the idea.  The difference in what we are discussing is whether when a cello is extremely twisted, should the neck be oriented to the c bouts, or to where the cellist touches the cello.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The  bouts are the problem!

Interestingly I got more problems in hitting the bouts on the C string than on the e string of my 5 stringed cello... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Riodifirenze said:

The  bouts are the problem!

Interestingly I got more problems in hitting the bouts on the C string than on the e string of my 5 stringed cello... 

Ha...I think with 5 string cellos all bets are off...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/13/2019 at 10:49 AM, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Yes, what you said is all a given.  The difference in what we are discussing is whether when a cello is extremely twisted, should the neck be oriented to the c bouts, or to where the cellist touches the cello.  

I've never seen a cellist hold (or index) an instrument by the edges of the top with their legs Jerry, but that's what your fancy stick does.

Many instruments are thicker on one side than the other

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mnorfleet said:

I've never seen a cellist hold (or index) an instrument by the edges of the top with their legs Jerry, but that's what your fancy stick does.

Many instruments are thicker on one side than the other

The edges of the top where the fancy stick does, no. But they indeed hold and index the cello off the lower bouts, which as you know is right under the top, and of course they don’t hold or index the cello from the c bout, which is the discussion we are having.  Whether we are better off gauging the comfort of a player from someplace they touch the instrument, or an arbitrary point at the c bouts.  “Fancy”??.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/12/2019 at 11:25 AM, David Burgess said:

Who needs to do that? When in France, I just point to the picture of a beer on the Burger King menu. :lol:

Same thing at the McDonalds in Moscow. ;)

 

At McDonalds in Moscow you'll only find beer on the  Little Pioneers children's menu. Otherwise Vodka is generally the most popular drink on the menu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mnorfleet said:

I've never seen a cellist hold (or index) an instrument by the edges of the top with their legs Jerry, but that's what your fancy stick does.

Many instruments are thicker on one side than the other

Hi M good to see you here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 12:37 PM, nathan slobodkin said:

Most violins will need between 25 and 27.5 cellos between 77 and 83.  Exactly what is right for a particular instrument depends on many factors.

Isn't it easier in most cases to adjust the projection by altering the fingerboard?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.