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baroquecello

new york neck reset, what is it?

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31 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

If we were only thinking of bow clearance that would be correct.  However, more important is the facility of the player and risks to a career due to physical problems.  String clearance issues in the extreme can also be remedied with applied and projection.

How does measuring in a way that effectively randomizes the result help? I assume you are talking about allowing the player a more comfortable left arm position and reducing the need to raise the bow arm as high while playing on the A string. 

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1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

How does measuring in a way that effectively randomizes the result help? I assume you are talking about allowing the player a more comfortable left arm position and reducing the need to raise the bow arm as high while playing on the A string. 

There is absolutely nothing about setting a neck that is random.  What are you talking about?  Are we continuing a conversation you did not get a chance to finish with Rene'?

 

BTW, I have never had the case where the poiriette was set to enable facility to the player did not also leave string clearance optimized.

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1 hour ago, arglebargle said:

Jerry, 

Could you explain how you measure poiriette at the lower bout? I'm having a hard time picturing/understanding it.

Thank you

C2397FD6-DAD9-4409-81DD-3506E1AEA118.thumb.jpeg.c28bd4eefb4fe83e92f6d1fbbe1858c2.jpeg

This is a poiriette stick for cello.  The horizontal line is the poiriette line that the edges of the fingerboard would be aligned.  Does this help?

 

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21 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

C2397FD6-DAD9-4409-81DD-3506E1AEA118.thumb.jpeg.c28bd4eefb4fe83e92f6d1fbbe1858c2.jpegThis is a poiriette stick for cello.  The horizontal line is the poiriette line that the edges of the fingerboard would be aligned.  Does this help?

 

Yup. And of course begs more questions, if I may:

Is the difference between the treble and bass side a standard number, say 2.5mm? It appears quite large in the picture.

Would this used on both new and older, funky instruments? And to be clear, is used when initially setting, or totally re-setting the neck?

 In a case where the lower bouts "need" a different tilt than the neck, which would take priority? Example, the body has warped to the point where the overstand would be reversed (A @ 20, C @ 22).

Thanks!

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11 minutes ago, arglebargle said:

Yup. And of course begs more questions, if I may:

Is the difference between the treble and bass side a standard number, say 2.5mm? It appears quite large in the picture.                                                                                                                                               Would this used on both new and older, funky instruments? And to be clear, is used when initially setting, or totally re-setting the neck?                                                                                                                                                                                                               In a case where the lower bouts "need" a different tilt than the neck, which would take priority? Example, the body has warped to the point where the overstand would be reversed (A @ 20, C @ 22).

Thanks!

The difference between the treble and bass is 1 mm at a distance of 65 mm, which is the width of the bottom of a cello fingerboard...the rest of the line is a continuation.  All cellos are set to this poiriette including and especially when the body is twisted.  The theory is the cellist indexes the instrument at the lower bouts and the neck so it is the relationship between those that we want to define.  I have had cellos that end up with the overstand all over the map compared to the poiriette, it is common. However, most notably for me was a very nice 18th century Roman cello that not only was exactly square and perfect end to end, but it also showed no signs of distortion at the bridge.... unprecedented for me on an instrument of that age.

 

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56 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

There is absolutely nothing about setting a neck that is random.  What are you talking about?  Are we continuing a conversation you did not get a chance to finish with Rene"?

 

BTW, I have never had the case where the poiriette was set to enable facility to the player did not also leave string clearance optimized.

 

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

How does measuring in a way that effectively randomizes the result help? I assume you are talking about allowing the player a more comfortable left arm position and reducing the need to raise the bow arm as high while playing on the A string. 

I understand what both of you are saying.  I have used the "stick" placed across the lower block area, but find it is useful on only certain instruments.  And, the amount of tilt (poiriette) needs to vary from instrument to instrument.  A wide uncut Montagnana would probably receive different treatment than a narrow Strad model cello.  In my opinion 1mm would not be sufficient for many cellos.  Not only for the bow clearance at the c bout, but for the comfort of the player getting over the shoulder in higher positions.  On old instruments, so many things can have changed over time that depending on any one method isn't the best idea.  

 

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51 minutes ago, Philip Perret said:

 

I understand what both of you are saying.  I have used the "stick" placed across the lower block area, but find it is useful on only certain instruments.  And, the amount of tilt (poiriette) needs to vary from instrument to instrument.  A wide uncut Montagnana would probably receive different treatment than a narrow Strad model cello.  In my opinion 1mm would not be sufficient for many cellos.  Not only for the bow clearance at the c bout, but for the comfort of the player getting over the shoulder in higher positions.  On old instruments, so many things can have changed over time that depending on any one method isn't the best idea.  

 

Certainly Weisshaar had a variable system when measuring clearance at the bridge and used the same justification, but measuring at the lower bout eliminates the vagaries of body style as it relates to player comfort.  I would be interested in knowing what instruments you believe the poiriette stick is not useful and why.   For instance,  a Montagnana is wider than a Strad so you want different poiriette for the Montagnana...okay if that is the case, what is the reason to not have the same poiriette and geometry from the Montaganana on the Strad?  If the same player is playing both cellos, why are you altering the measurements "randomly" to borrow a term?  Clearance is clearance..enough is enough, but too much is still only enough...,  

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I looked up "Poiriette" in the dictionary, and didn't find anything. "Poirette" was a Kind of vegitable, you didn't mean that did you? Perhaps a Francophoe Maestroneter could be so kind and explain to confused Englishmen like me?

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21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I looked up "Poiriette" in the dictionary, and didn't find anything. "Poirette" was a Kind of vegitable, you didn't mean that did you? Perhaps a Francophoe Maestroneter could be so kind and explain to confused Englishmen like me?

Jacob are you really confused about this again?  Perhaps you could take notes this time.

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If "Poiriette" is supposed to mean "Tilt" one should point out that it is an old dogma that was taught in the Aschauer Mittenwald School a couple of generations ago, and has long since been abandoned by any makers who actually play an instrument. The virtuose, Tertis, actually advocated tilting the viola fingerboard upwards towards the A string to facillitate a small (himself) violist playing in higher positions (writen about here)

Making the fingerboard/neck glue joint flat to the body is definatly correct, and an argument can be made for tilting the E (or A  with viola) upwards a tiny bit. The Weißhaar book is in many respects not violin making Gospel including here.

 

PS. I would still like a Frenchman to tell me what the word really means!

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

If "Poiriette" is supposed to mean "Tilt" one should point out that it is an old dogma that was taught in the Aschauer Mittenwald School a couple of generations ago, and has long since been abandoned by any makers who actually play an instrument. The virtuose, Tertis, actually advocated tilting the viola fingerboard upwards towards the A string to facillitate a small (himself) violist playing in higher positions (writen about here)

Making the fingerboard/neck glue joint flat to the body is definatly correct, and an argument can be made for tilting the E (or A  with viola) upwards a tiny bit. The Weißhaar book is in many respects not violin making Gospel including here.

 

PS. I would still like a Frenchman to tell me what the word really means!

:D  well that makes sense, let's let the guy who is confused by the term define the concept.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I

Making the fingerboard/neck glue joint flat to the body is definatly correct, and an argument can be made for tilting the E (or A  with viola) upwards a tiny bit. The Weißhaar book is in many respects not violin making Gospel including here.

  

 

To each their own.  

 

53 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Certainly Weisshaar had a variable system when measuring clearance at the bridge and used the same justification, but measuring at the lower bout eliminates the vagaries of body style as it relates to player comfort.  I would be interested in knowing what instruments you believe the poiriette stick is not useful and why.   For instance,  a Montagnana is wider than a Strad so you want different poiriette for the Montagnana...okay if that is the case, what is the reason to not have the same poiriette and geometry from the Montaganana on the Strad?  If the same player is playing both cellos, why are you altering the measurements "randomly" to borrow a term?  Clearance is clearance..enough is enough, but too much is still only enough...,  

Very briefly, what you're calling "poiriette stick" can be useful, but only as one tool in the box.  I can't go on further now as I have a "New York" ;) projection/pitch/neck raise to finish up for this afternoon. :)

 

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26 minutes ago, Philip Perret said:

To each their own.  

 

Very briefly, what you're calling "poiriette stick" can be useful, but only as one tool in the box.  I can't go on further now as I have a "New York" ;) projection/pitch/neck raise to finish up for this afternoon. :)

 

Another time then, I am always interested in more tools.:D

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36 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

:D  well that makes sense, lets let the guy who is confused by the term define the concept.

 

do you think you would even manage to order a beer in French?

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

do you think you would even manage to order a beer in French?

Who needs to do that? When in France, I just point to the picture of a beer on the Burger King menu. :lol:

Same thing at the McDonalds in Moscow. ;)

It even works in London, where I try to pretend that I'm some kind of exotic foreigner who can't speak English. :rolleyes:

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After the completion of my first cello I noticed that the bow was painfully close to the ribs, so instead of a right angle grinder to the c bouts, it seemed that tilting the fingerboard would be in order.

So now I do half of the poiriette while setting the neck, the rest is done on the fingerboard gluing surface.

I've had 5 kids go through ballet and soccer, I have to be careful around here,

I do believe that a poiriette could knock a guy out, it seem to be the begining of kung fu,,,

Look out ,,she's fixin to spin,,,,, Duck!

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5 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

C2397FD6-DAD9-4409-81DD-3506E1AEA118.thumb.jpeg.c28bd4eefb4fe83e92f6d1fbbe1858c2.jpeg

This is a poiriette stick for cello.  The horizontal line is the poiriette line that the edges of the fingerboard would be aligned.  Does this help?

 

Well,this is where it gets interesting! the line (I'm assuming the pencil line) is clearly very tilted towards the c string. The tilt is so much I would expect the bridge height of the c and a strings assuming no distortion of the body) to be practically identical. Is that correct? I'm asking because I think I've only once in my life seen a cello that had sort of the same height for c and a strings, and I thought it was a mistake. I'm wondering wether this is something that is not done in Europe? I am a professional Player, by the way, so I do have some experience what cello is concerned...

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1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

Well,this is where it gets interesting! the line (I'm assuming the pencil line) is clearly very tilted towards the c string. The tilt is so much I would expect the bridge height of the c and a strings assuming no distortion of the body) to be practically identical. Is that correct? I'm asking because I think I've only once in my life seen a cello that had sort of the same height for c and a strings, and I thought it was a mistake. I'm wondering wether this is something that is not done in Europe? I am a professional Player, by the way, so I do have some experience what cello is concerned...

This would not result in the a and c sides of the bridge being the same height, just a little easier to play.  BTW, this is not exclusively a New York thing, or for that matter a US thing.

 

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Who needs to do that? When in France, I just point to the picture of a beer on the Burger King menu. :lol:

Same thing at the McDonalds in Moscow. ;)

It even works in London, where I try to pretend that I'm some kind of exotic foreigner who can't speak English. :rolleyes:

I suppose you could just sit there, with your tounge hanging out, would probaby work too. Still doesn’t explain why people who speak no French, strew unknown French vocabulary into their diatribes when talking about repairing fiddles. I am still waiting for someone to explain what the word „Poiriette“ or „Poirette“ means in French.

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7 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

This would not result in the a and c sides of the bridge being the same height, just a little easier to play.  BTW, this is not exclusively a New York thing, or for that matter a US thing.

 

Yes It's not a US thing. It's a good cello set up thing. Been done in the UK for decades by the better setter uppers

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On 4/10/2019 at 11:58 AM, Nick Allen said:

Unless the guy in red has a knife with which to murder the guy choking him. Saw a guy get stabbed in the face the other day during a fist fight. Anything can happen in the streets, just like anything can happen in lutherie lol. 

Remember, nothing beats a .45 tween the eyes.

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3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I suppose you could just sit there, with your tounge hanging out, would probaby work too. Still doesn’t explain why people who speak no French, strew unknown French vocabulary into their diatribes when talking about repairing fiddles. I am still waiting for someone to explain what the word „Poiriette“ or „Poirette“ means in French.

Jacob, all these years and you still do not know what we are talking about? Seriously?  The fact that neck tilt or neck slant is used interchangeably with poiriette doesn't fire a couple neurons somewhere? 

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10 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Jacob, all these years and you still do not know what we are talking about? Seriously?  The fact that neck tilt or neck slant is used interchangeably with poiriette doesn't fire a couple neurons somewhere? 

I know what you're Talking about, just wonder why you cant speak English

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