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baroquecello

new york neck reset, what is it?

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1 hour ago, Bill Merkel said:

The guy in the red shirt is as good as dead.  No way to get out of that if the other guy's any good.

Nope. A finger into or behind the eye will work reasonably well in most non-regulated close-contact defensive situations, including shark attacks. Apologies for the ugliness of the concept.

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25 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Nope. A finger into or behind the eye will work reasonably well in most non-regulated close-contact defensive situations, including shark attacks. Apologies for the ugliness of the concept.

[Places another new spare comb in her purse.]  Very true, and some other counters to the hold exist, but one tries not to be too luridly graphic.  Anyway, if on the way to the opera or the ballet, it's best to keep one's fingers clean.  Miz Manners has spoken. ^_^

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9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I’ve always wondered what this has to do with New York, is that somewhere dangerous where you are in danger of having your neck slit open?

 

4 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

new york neck reset, what is it?

 

 

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Thank-you very much, that is the exact picture conjured up in my mind when I hear of a “New York neck set”. Just as well that I wasn’t ever planing on visiting the place.;)

 

On a more serious note, one should remember that this is a very “second choice” botch repair method, when the funds for setting the neck properly are not available. The optimum is when the neck is fitted properly, and this “short cut” will leave an uneven edge overhang, and the belly will hardly fit snugly on the top block any more. In the odd case I could imagine doing it, but it is a technique to use sparingly.

 

Since it has been mentioned; The Bellosio button broke off, IMHO because Mr. Bellosio made such a ridiculously deep purfling channel at this point, something to be avoided.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Nope. A finger into or behind the eye will work reasonably well in most non-regulated close-contact defensive situations, including shark attacks. Apologies for the ugliness of the concept.

That's the rookie's universal defense, but it doesn't work, at least on humans.  Better off stomping his foot (which won't be in range if he's any good).  But you want to counter what's going on, not do something unrelated.  

The problem with the choke in the picture is that less than a second after you're in it you can be dead.  I said what to do in an earlier post but I changed it, lest some little kid reading try it on his little bro and accidentally break his neck.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Since it has been mentioned; The Bellosio button broke off, IMHO because Mr. Bellosio made such a ridiculously deep purfling channel at this point, something to be avoided.

Bellosio's button made it a couple of centuries without being broken loose........perhaps the reason is a bit more contemporary?

 

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When you're ready to glue the ribs to the new place on the top, do you need to scrape away the varnish on the old overhang or will hide glue stick to the varnish?

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2 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

When you're ready to glue the ribs to the new place on the top, do you need to scrape away the varnish on the old overhang or will hide glue stick to the varnish?

You rarely move it that far, typically under .5 mm.  No scraping varnish.   It is also reversible very easily for when the neck needs to be re-set.

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56 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

On a more serious note, one should remember that this is a very “second choice” botch repair method, when the funds for setting the neck properly are not available.

I don't necessarily see it as a "botch repair", since it will probably be more easily reversible, and retain more original material than a neck reset or neck graft. I would see it as more of a best choice, unless something rules it out, such as insufficient top edge margin in the upper block area.

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40 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't necessarily see it as a "botch repair", since it will probably be more easily reversible, and retain more original material than a neck reset or neck graft. I would see it as more of a best choice, unless something rules it out, such as insufficient top edge margin in the upper block area.

Well I would certainly feel  a little abashed suggesting it, except as a last resort to someone on a „budget“

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21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Well I would certainly feel  a little abashed suggesting it, except as a last resort to someone on a „budget“

 

I enjoy saving repair customers money, and figuring out the least destructive and invasive way to do a repair. :)

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A few hours and the string heights are back where they should be, the string angle over the bridge is not changed, no chance of breaking the button, totally reversible, a fraction of the time and cost, and the instrument does not need to be unstrung to do it!

Maybe you should feel abashed not suggesting it.

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Thank you all for clearing that up! Glad to see it was my understanding that was correct.

But a question remains from the conversation we had. The person I was taking to maintained that, for Cellos,  it had to do with increasing neck overstand and increasing the projection of the a string relatively to the c string, so that the bridge would become more "centrered", equal in height for a and c strings. The idea behind this is that it would increase the load taken by the bass bar and decrease the load taken by the sound post (I find this unlikely). Supposedly this was developed by Morel. I've never seen or heard of this anywhere, can anyone shed a light on this?

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I fear that your interlocutor is conflating different things. A New York neck job merely makes the angle of the neck re. the body steeper, but does not change the “overstand” or even out any difference in A & C string heights, pressure on bas bar/post etc.

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1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

Thank you all for clearing that up! Glad to see it was my understanding that was correct.

But a question remains from the conversation we had. The person I was taking to maintained that, for Cellos,  it had to do with increasing neck overstand and increasing the projection of the a string relatively to the c string, so that the bridge would become more "centrered", equal in height for a and c strings. The idea behind this is that it would increase the load taken by the bass bar and decrease the load taken by the sound post (I find this unlikely). Supposedly this was developed by Morel. I've never seen or heard of this anywhere, can anyone shed a light on this?

What you are talking about is poiriette or neck tilt.  This would be set into the neck and could not be done with raising the projection.  This is not strictly a Rene’ thing, as makers have done this since before Rene’ was around.  Also, your understanding is not quite right.....This is an effective tool to help in the lower end response on a violin as the “g”  is higher in that case, but the cello is opposite with the “a”side higher.  I do not think I ever heard Rene’ reason anything but player mobility and C bout clearance when talking about poiriette on cello.

You may actually be talking about a “New York Neck Reset” which would indeed be a neck reset done the way we did it in the Francais shop which would explain things.  Rene’ was very particular on how the measurements should be on a neck set with the overstand most of the time increasing on cello and poiriette added, and also very particular on how they should fit. It looks like this thread was misdirected early on.

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On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 6:41 AM, sospiri said:

Nathan, what is too low and what is too high in projection in your opinion?

Most violins will need between 25 and 27.5 cellos between 77 and 83.  Exactly what is right for a particular instrument depends on many factors.

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I've met many folks in shops who get very upset about raising the pitch of the neck this way.  I've seen them tell players that they need a full neck reset at a cost of 'lots of dollars'.  This procedure is not always appropriate as David mentioned.  If the edge margin is insufficient or the amount you need to raise is more than a mm or so then it's likey not the right thing to do .  But it's a useful procedure that works, it's not particularly invasive, it's inexpensive and you don't have to pull back anywhere close to as much a you think to raise the neck by a mm.  And it's the same procedure that you should do after a repair that required the top to be removed.  When you glue it back you leave it loose around the neck and top bout so you can control the pitch of the neck and return it to the same place it was before you took the instrument apart.  I've seen a cello repair where the top has been glued back on, post repair, without any regard for the original neck pitch.  The neck angle shot up and the player's bridge suddenly became unusable because it was too low.

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22 hours ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Also, your understanding is not quite right.....This is an effective tool to help in the lower end response on a violin as the “g”  is higher in that case, but the cello is opposite with the “a”side higher.  I do not think I ever heard Rene’ reason anything but player mobility and C bout clearance when talking about poiriette on cello.

You may actually be talking about a “New York Neck Reset” which would indeed be a neck reset done the way we did it in the Francais shop which would explain things.

Thanks everyone for helping me understand this better.

 

@Jerry Pasewicz from your last sentence I take it, there are indeed two kinds of ew York neck reset, meaning the name refers to two different practises at the same time, the one being the neck pull back and shim type, the other the more comprehensive one you Mention here, which seems to me to be nothing else but a "proper" reset, with all the necessary Adjustments (which I take it may include a clavette, a shim under the fingerboard for adding poiriette, possibly even a new neck or top block, if the situation requires it?). That does complicate Things, because now we cannot distinguish between the two.

As to the poiriette, or neck tilt. Just to check if I understand this right.

1. We are Talking About the neck tilt that causes one side of the fingerboard to have a lower projection than the other.

2. this is done solely for the Purpose of playability, and not with the idea that it will, for instance, change the sound or response of the strings.

3. it is achieved by tilting the plane of the neck Surface to which the fingerboard is glued. You can see that easily if you measure neck overstand and compare the treble and bass side.

4. on violins, it is beneficial to tilt the fingerboard toward the treble side,  so that the g string is more easily reached with the bow. On Cellos it is better to do the opposite, so that the a string can be more easily accessed with the bow, and the shoulder of the cello will be less in the way when shifting.

Ine Thing I think is important for Players to know, is that the poiriette may not be apparent to you on first glance at all. On my own cello, the neck overstand at the treble side is About 21.5~22mm, and at the bass side 20~20.5mm the difference is About 1.5~2mm, yet the bridge is higher for the c than for a string. This is due to the lower string clearance over the fingerboard of the treble strings (on my cello 5 for the a string, 8 for the c string) compared to the bass strings, and possibly a small top Deformation (bass bar may cave in, in my case prob 1 mm, treble side may rise in time, in my case prob 1MM). On my cello, in spite of the poiriette, the bridge is 82 MM at the a string and 88MM at the c string, which to the Player makes it appear as if the tilt toard the a string is deliberate, whereas in fact a lot is done to minimise it. 

A question I have is how much poiriette is desirable. In the example of my cello, might a Little more be more comfortable or is this Pretty much ideal?

I can imagine it also helps to get over the shoulder of the instrument to higher positions more easily, do you have any response on the part of Players regarding this?

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My understanding is that the tilt on a cello is mainly to facilitate bow clearance of the c bout on the A string. If you tilted it like a violin there is a chance the bow would hit the edge. But it varies by instrument.

 

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17 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

Thanks everyone for helping me understand this better.

 

@Jerry Pasewicz from your last sentence I take it, there are indeed two kinds of ew York neck reset, meaning the name refers to two different practises at the same time, the one being the neck pull back and shim type, the other the more comprehensive one you Mention here, which seems to me to be nothing else but a "proper" reset, with all the necessary Adjustments (which I take it may include a clavette, a shim under the fingerboard for adding poiriette, possibly even a new neck or top block, if the situation requires it?). That does complicate Things, because now we cannot distinguish between the two.

As to the poiriette, or neck tilt. Just to check if I understand this right.

1. We are Talking About the neck tilt that causes one side of the fingerboard to have a lower projection than the other.

2. this is done solely for the Purpose of playability, and not with the idea that it will, for instance, change the sound or response of the strings.

3. it is achieved by tilting the plane of the neck Surface to which the fingerboard is glued. You can see that easily if you measure neck overstand and compare the treble and bass side.

4. on violins, it is beneficial to tilt the fingerboard toward the treble side,  so that the g string is more easily reached with the bow. On Cellos it is better to do the opposite, so that the a string can be more easily accessed with the bow, and the shoulder of the cello will be less in the way when shifting.

Ine Thing I think is important for Players to know, is that the poiriette may not be apparent to you on first glance at all. On my own cello, the neck overstand at the treble side is About 21.5~22mm, and at the bass side 20~20.5mm the difference is About 1.5~2mm, yet the bridge is higher for the c than for a string. This is due to the lower string clearance over the fingerboard of the treble strings (on my cello 5 for the a string, 8 for the c string) compared to the bass strings, and possibly a small top Deformation (bass bar may cave in, in my case prob 1 mm, treble side may rise in time, in my case prob 1MM). On my cello, in spite of the poiriette, the bridge is 82 MM at the a string and 88MM at the c string, which to the Player makes it appear as if the tilt toard the a string is deliberate, whereas in fact a lot is done to minimise it. 

A question I have is how much poiriette is desirable. In the example of my cello, might a Little more be more comfortable or is this Pretty much ideal?

I can imagine it also helps to get over the shoulder of the instrument to higher positions more easily, do you have any response on the part of Players regarding this?

Good morning.

The way some describe a “New York Neck Set” is actually called raising the projection.  I think “New York Neck Set” is a derogatory term some assign to the procedure...it was never referred to that way at Francais or at my shop.

Poiriette is usually about 1 mm on cello, however, it is measured at the lower bouts as that is where the player’s legs index off the instrument.  It is entirely possible for the overstand to look as if the poiriette is opposite when it is entirely correct .....due to the twist in the cello body.  Violin poiriette is opposite as you state.  Adding poiriette does have an effect on the sound and feel of the instrument, quite a bit for violin and not so much for cello.  This is very helpful especially given the sound and feel we were looking for in NY and the way the tension of strings is graduated.  Violas are set with no poiriette.

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8 minutes ago, arglebargle said:

My understanding is that the tilt on a cello is mainly to facilitate bow clearance of the c bout on the A string. If you tilted it like a violin there is a chance the bow would hit the edge. But it varies by instrument.

 

That is my understanding.

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9 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Jerry,

Surely it makes more sense to measure cello Poiriette at the bridge where it is needed for bow clearance rather than at the lower bout where a twisted body may totally change the measurement.

If we were only thinking of bow clearance that would be correct.  However, more important is the facility of the player and risks to a career due to physical problems.  String clearance issues in the extreme can also be remedied with applied and projection.

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1 hour ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

Poiriette is usually about 1 mm on cello, however, it is measured at the lower bouts as that is where the player’s legs index off the instrument.  It is entirely possible for the overstand to look as if the poiriette is opposite when it is entirely correct .....due to the twist in the cello body.  Violin poiriette is opposite as you state.  Adding poiriette does have an effect on the sound and feel of the instrument, quite a bit for violin and not so much for cello.  This is very helpful especially given the sound and feel we were looking for in NY and the way the tension of strings is graduated.  Violas are set with no poiriette.

Jerry, 

Could you explain how you measure poiriette at the lower bout? I'm having a hard time picturing/understanding it.

Thank you

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1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

Thanks everyone for helping me understand this better.

 

@Jerry Pasewicz from your last sentence I take it, there are indeed two kinds of New York neck reset, meaning the name refers to two different practises at the same time, the one being the neck pull back and shim type, the other the more comprehensive one you Mention here, which seems to me to be nothing else but a "proper" reset, with all the necessary Adjustments (which I take it may include a clavette, a shim under the fingerboard for adding poiriette, possibly even a new neck or top block, if the situation requires it?). That does complicate Things, because now we cannot distinguish between the two.

 

 

The term "neck reset" is the one Jerry described where the neck is removed and all measurements are corrected to appropriate specs. It doesn't matter where it is performed although obviously at Francais or any other good shop It would be done well.

The term "New York neckset" is a humorously pejorative term playing on the, shall we say frugality, of New Yorkers in general and Rene Morel  in particular (Rene insisted we use a piece of sand paper until it was so soft you could blow your nose with it). Even properly set necks can drop over time and raising the pitch via this procedure is a much less expensive and much less invasive procedure which addresses the problem, only takes a few hours and for most  players solves the issue with no objectionable side effects.

The third branch of this triumvirate would be a "neck replacement" where the old neck is removed a new neck is grafted to the scroll and the neck is reset as if it was a new violin often with a new upper block as well. This is usually done when even a "neck reset" will not solve all the issues, for example a neck that is too narrow. 

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