Sign in to follow this  
jermen

How much will it cost to repair these cracks and must it be done, also woodworm query

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I wish more people had a chance to spend time around really high-end repairers and restorers, so they could learn to appreciate the time and skill involved.

So true, David. 

And I think many of us put much more effort in a top restoration than what is actually charged in the end, just for saving the life of an instrument. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Delabo said:

Where does the OP with there $50 violin go to  for a reasonable repair at reasonable cost ?

No place. There is no reasonable repair at a reasonable cost for that violin. It is totaled beyond any reasonable repair.

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I wish more people had a chance to spend time around really high-end repairers and restorers, so they could learn to appreciate the time and skill involved.

Preach! The more time I spend with my luthier, the more I appreciate his skill, knowledge, experience and artistry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Delabo said:

I am in the UK, but based on what I have heard its a toss up between lawyers and plumbers who charge the most per hour in the USA.

I think "luthiers" can be added to that list. :ph34r:

 

High end workshops I know of in London are no less, and sometimes more expensive, than those in the states.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

High end workshops I know of in London are no less, and sometimes more expensive, than those in the states.

Yes, I can see that. I guess a repair by John Dilworth would not come cheap.

My original reply to David was "tongue in cheek", but that got lost in translation.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting thing that might have been overlooked is the statement that after the repairs it might be better or it might be worse.  This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder why the same entities might say the sound post needs to fit well and be vertical.  I can't reconcile how that might not be better or worse too.....  Not that some changes to the instrument can't be definitely for the better.... But, if you elect to play it as is, and it doesn't cave in first, I've heard recommended in an instrument with an unrepaired sound post crack to tilt the post diagonally, so it isn't pressing against the crack.  Factory certified mechanics naturally going to gag on that bit of rigging.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I notice a lot of verbiage like "top notch" and "high end" thrown around here. Like any field there is a top 5-10%  that do  outstanding work and command a premium. Well worth it in many situations, but that's not where this fiddle should go, if anywhere. 

Most home town brick and mortar violin shops can tackle a soundpost patch and a few other cracks and do a good job of it, and do it routinely. But the cost would still  be 2-3K. Still doesnt make sense economically for this instrument, but getting down to "mad money" range for a lot of people if there is sentimental value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be of interest if someone knowledgeable could explain the sequence of events required to fix this violin.

Does it require a plaster cast ?

Hot sand.

From a layman's perspective it just seems like open the violin, clean the cracks, glue, clamp, apply diamond patches to the closed cracks. Close.

Is there a lot more to it that I am missing ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Delabo said:

1) Does it require a plaster cast ?

2) Hot sand.

3) From a layman's perspective it just seems like open the violin, clean the cracks, glue, clamp, apply diamond patches to the closed cracks. Close.

1) Yes.  Two, and two inlaid patches, if you want to properly attend to the back sp crack as well as the two in the top.

2) Can't tell... depends... at least one of the visible cracks are pretty wide open.  It'll require some effort to close it without tension, I think.

3) I assume you mean diamond shaped cleats, not patches.  You're description sounds so nice and tidy, but I'd expect once one was into that fiddle it would not be so.  In addition to the other work, we have no idea of the neck angle, fingerboard, etc.  Considering the general condition, I'd expect more work than is redly visible.

The fiddle doesn't look like it rates serious professional attention.  Sad but true.  That's what separates valuable from not valuable instruments from an investment/maintenance standpoint. There is "room" for spending money for very good to excellent work on a more expensive instrument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Delabo said:

It would be of interest if someone knowledgeable could explain the sequence of events required to fix this violin.

1) Does it require a plaster cast ?

2) Hot sand.

3) From a layman's perspective it just seems like open the violin, clean the cracks, glue, clamp, apply diamond patches to the closed cracks. Close.

4) Is there a lot more to it that I am missing ?

4. Extensive cosmetic retouching, to restore the appearance. This can eat up as many hours, or even more than it takes to glue the cracks in the first instance.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the low end, where 99% of us are operating, realistically, you have to be careful to not get more than you wanted.  "I put a new tail gut on it like you wanted, and while I was at it I refinished it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

4. Extensive cosmetic retouching, to restore the appearance. This can eat up as many hours, or even more than it takes to glue the cracks in the first instance.
 

Yup... I wasn't even going to "go there"... :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

Too bad Rene didn't figure out a cheap way to fix cheap violins for you.  For real.

Bill, it's not that these people are incapable of doing cheap repair. It's that when someone has the skill-set to do high-level repair, that's usually what they prefer to do, specialize in, and they already have too much work anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Delabo said:

It would be of interest if someone knowledgeable could explain the sequence of events required to fix this violin.

 

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Bill, it's not that these people are incapable of doing cheap repair. It's that when someone has the skill-set to do high-level repair, that's usually what they prefer to do, specialize in, and they already have too much work anyway.

I was responding to the sequence of events required to fix this violin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the first people to walk into my shop unannounced off the street, when I first opened my own shop at the end of the 80’s, was an elderly gentleman with a red face and a green hat. He asked me if I could look at his violin, I said yes, surely. He opened his case and showed it to me. It was unsurprisingly “the usual”: I asked how I could help him. He told me that he had left it at the shop of violin-maker “B” (who I knew personally) who had repaired it at a cost of 7,000 Schillings (One Euro was subsequently worth 13.7603 Schillings). After paying his repair invoice he asked “B” what it was worth now. “B” told him “about 4,000 Schillings” I said “Oh, really”, and just had to bite my lip for the next half hour or so, when he went off with an epic rant about what a disgusting mishpocha violin-makers were. He was a pensioner, and seemed determined to spend his time spreading this message around the whole of Austria. The OP should perhaps bear this vantage point in mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I knew a retired science teacher who spent his time being an excellent woodworker.   It's more appropriate for somebody like him to work on this than somebody who belongs in the Louvre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But - whatever you do - do NOT attempt a DIY!!!

It might have no value today - but keep in mind it might have value 300 years down the road!!!

:ph34r::blink::P

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Rue said:

It might have no value today - but keep in mind it might have value 300 years down the road!!!

:ph34r::blink::P

 

May not even be a 300 year wait, maybe another 15 to 20 years at the earliest.  Someone will eventually come along following the old rule "if one doesn't fix it, someone else will".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate repeating myself but everyone please with due respect, if some cheeky individual comes to.me and asks for quick fix for sweet fa, then I would tell them to do one. I wouldn't let them near my home, as there are a lot of vindictive butters around.

Being taught by some of you on here about doing the work, to a good level takes many years.

It's not about the violin, it's about the ignorance which punters, players, or sorry...ignorance of people like this guy who has no idea about the wasted hours on a cheap heap of junk, and see to a full restoration like it is a rare rolls Royce and the ignorance, of this guy, who obviously is here for I'm guessing, fishing to waste our time and money. Why allow insulting behaviour by explaining yourselves by answering a fisher. He's a cheap guy wanting a bargain restored properly for cheap prices. I don't deal with people who want something for nothing. He is a cheeky individual. He believes that we are all rich, elitist cons. Let him go cos we cannot argue with incorigible self righteous individuals. It's part of being truthful with crazy people who believe that they are whatever. Stop wasting time. He can do everything himself if he reads all the topics. I find now it's like being the doctor or the priest, helping people go through loss of their beloveds' deaths. There is many ways to mourn their loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, morgana said:

I hate repeating myself but everyone please with due respect, if some cheeky individual comes to.me and asks for quick fix for sweet fa, then I would tell them to do one. I wouldn't let them near my home, as there are a lot of vindictive butters around.

Being taught by some of you on here about doing the work, to a good level takes many years.

It's not about the violin, it's about the ignorance which punters, players, or sorry...ignorance of people like this guy who has no idea about the wasted hours on a cheap heap of junk, and see to a full restoration like it is a rare rolls Royce and the ignorance, of this guy, who obviously is here for I'm guessing, fishing to waste our time and money. Why allow insulting behaviour by explaining yourselves by answering a fisher. He's a cheap guy wanting a bargain restored properly for cheap prices. I don't deal with people who want something for nothing. He is a cheeky individual. He believes that we are all rich, elitist cons. Let him go cos we cannot argue with incorigible self righteous individuals. It's part of being truthful with crazy people who believe that they are whatever. Stop wasting time. He can do everything himself if he reads all the topics. I find now it's like being the doctor or the priest, helping people go through loss of their beloveds' deaths. There is many ways to mourn their loss.

What side of the bed did you get out of this morning ?

The OP is a new member who asked a question about repair costs in a totally respectable way.

The OP explained " Also just to add I did not see the cracks till I got it home, which was ignorance on my part."

Where did the OP ask for something to be done cheap ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This looks such a severely damaged instrument  that I think it would be best to use it as kindling for the wood fire. 

If you care to look at the life cycle of wood borers and how they constructs their burrows in wood you would realize that the damage shown in these photographs is severe. Depending on whether the infestation is active or not, the inclusion of such an instrument into the workshop of an instrument maker could represent a hazard from insect contamination. I would not have such an instrument in my workshop. My workshop has precious wood which I covet and because some player has bought a second rate instrument from ebay is no excuse to me. I have been burnt before by players who have some second rate instrument in for repair . One feels an obligation to work on a second rate instrument for the sake of the client and the need to try and make a living. The client is not always right. 

Yet there is the need to survive, but looking at the severe damage to this instrument from cracks as well as insects, why don't  players buy new instruments from makers who are currently making good instruments. Show some faith in what is being made today  and give some modern makers a chance at surviving in this god forsaken world. 

Further, I would argue that many players are completely beguiled  by the romance of old instruments. Dealers encourage this romanticism for the sake of sales.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, williamtell said:

This looks such a severely damaged instrument  that I think it would be best to use it as kindling for the wood fire. 

If you care to look at the life cycle of wood borers and how they constructs their burrows in wood you would realize that the damage shown in these photographs is severe. Depending on whether the infestation is active or not, the inclusion of such an instrument into the workshop of an instrument maker could represent a hazard from insect contamination. I would not have such an instrument in my workshop. My workshop has precious wood which I covet and because some player has bought a second rate instrument from ebay is no excuse to me. I have been burnt before by players who have some second rate instrument in for repair . One feels an obligation to work on a second rate instrument for the sake of the client and the need to try and make a living. The client is not always right. 

Yet there is the need to survive, but looking at the severe damage to this instrument from cracks as well as insects, why don't  players buy new instruments from makers who are currently making good instruments. Show some faith in what is being made today  and give some modern makers a chance at surviving in this god forsaken world. 

Further, I would argue that many players are completely beguiled  by the romance of old instruments. Dealers encourage this romanticism for the sake of sales.

You needn't get carried away.Basically, one can repair anything, the question is if it’s worth it. (Here not)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/16/2019 at 11:55 PM, williamtell said:

why don't  players buy new instruments from makers who are currently making good instruments. Show some faith in what is being made today  and give some modern makers a chance at surviving in this god forsaken world. 

$20-$30K is a barrier to many players. But in spite of that I see a stronger demand for newly made instruments than any other time in my life.

For those who are priced out of the new handmade market, and don't want a Chinese production instrument, an old Markie can be a great choice, just not this particular one.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.